Synergy Tech Support
Synergy Nitro Helicopters => Synergy N7 => Topic started by: beans07 on October 21, 2014, 06:18:42 PM
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Hi all, I am having some tuning issues with my OS 105 HZR. It feels rich but if I go any leaner than 2 turns on the main it gets too hot. The power is ok but not even remotely close to my mates 120SR. It will pull 12 degree pitch in a climb out but struggles with tic tocs and other moves that load the engine. It doesn't hold a candle to my mates YS120SR that pulls 14 without hesitation and he can be violently rough on the sticks without it even changing notes.
I am running 2 shims on 20% fuel (cool power homebrew based). I am flying about 700ft above sea level. OS 8 plug. I have cleaned the reg and re sealed the pipe (hatori 105 pipe) which allowed me to go in half a turn to 2 turns on the main but it's now running more roughly than before. It is cold on the back plate where you can just feel a bit above ambient on the back plate (86 degrees F yesterday when flying). If I go in 2 more clicks it runs hot to the point hold the finger on the backplate. It seems strange that 2 clicks can be the difference between cold and hot.
Vbar silver log doesn't have anything more than the odd high vibration but it's full of gov is at full throttle so that could be why as it seems to have a bit more vibration than when I ran it in 8 months ago. I really don't think it is over pitched as I set it with VBC at 12 degrees. I have not touched the vbar governor at all.
I am only getting 6 mins of flight time which doesn't sound right to me?
I have only seen and felt glimpses of how good this heli is so any help would be greatly appreciated.
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You shouldn't need two shims to run 20%. You might start there?
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With 20% nitro run the .2mm shim. What is you mid needle set at? The motor sounds rich. When was this motor purchased? Do you know about the high needle seat update?
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The high needle on the left is the correct size, the one on the right is the Wrong Size. OS released a batch of OS 105's that had the wrong needles seen on the right. Look at your high seat and pay attention to the size of the bore, also the ones that were bad are darker in color. See if this helps.
Best Regards,
Kevin
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Well I have tried 5 times to upload the pictures of the Needle Seats and unfortunately it won't load. Figures right? What is your Email address and I will send you the image to help distinguish which you have?
BR,
Kevin
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An easy way to tell if it's the wrong one is to try to insert a 1.5 mm Allen wrench into the orifice at the end. If it can go in, at all, it's no good. I just got my replacement yesterday and hoping to try it this week.
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Thanks for the replies lads. Sorry I am late to get to them I was waiting for an email prompt that someone had replied alas maybe this forum doesn't do that. Not to worry.
The engine was purchased in January this year but may have been a little older stock possibly up to 3 months.
I contacted previously the importer for these engines in Australia and they know nothing about this issue and told me they would enquire with Japan. I even pointed to a forum post on HF. They came back at me saying that OS told them there isn't any issues and no update parts.
I am pretty sure I added a 0.1 shim in it which would make 0.3 I may have to pull the engine out to check but I really don't want to unless I have to.
As a side question when did OS start making their Heli engines in China? My box has a sticker on the side which includes "MADE IN CHINA".
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I am exactly 2.0 turns on the main and 1.5 turns on the mid needle.
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Very possible you have the over bored Needle Seat. pic's sent via Email..
Best Regards,
Kevin
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my motor was bought at that same time, if i am not mistaken, it had the incorrect needle seat....
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Thanks for the pictures Kevin, I have the one on the left the lighter grey coloured one.
I can insert a 1.5mm MIP tip inside (the shaft of the MIP wont go through).
So I am confused if I have the right or the wrong one now.
We are talking about the main needle seat?
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Yes, the main needle seat. If you were able to get any of that wrench to go in, you have the bad one with the 1.7mm orifice.
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I have contacted the place of purchase and see if they can source me one.
So how many and what size shims should I run in this engine? Currently I have 0.3 (0.2 + 0.1)
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Shims for 20% = .2mm.
Contact hobby. Services. They have the seats and will mail one to you. Call them.
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I've been running just the .2mm in mine.
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Shims for 20% = .2mm.
Contact hobby. Services. They have the seats and will mail one to you. Call them.
He's not in the U.S.A.
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What the wrong seat dose is effect the fuel regulator. The wrong size bore give the wrong vacuum on the regulator valve. Which in turn makes you motor run rich then lean. And you can not tune it.
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If you don't have any luck in Australia, you could try sending an email to partssupport@greatplanes.com and explain your situation to them. That was the email address I used to contact hobby services and get my replacement needle seat.
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Thanks guy's for all your help. My local bloke I bought the engine off is chasing it up with RC Japan one of the other engines that he got at the same time has issues as well.
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Well I got a reply tonight. The shop I bought the engine off contacted their Japanese Supplier who in turn contacted OS engines. OS engines are not familiar with any issues at all on OS 105HZR engines. I am told they will have to deal with it individually and it may have to go back to Japan which I would assume would be at my cost to send there.
How is it in the US they hand out needle seats to affected customers yet OS in Japan are not familiar with any issues.
No wonder people fly electrics.
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They know about it. They made the new needle seats. The seats were handed out at IRCA and if you were not at IRCHA you can get one from Hobby Services. I would send an email to hobby services ( see the link Rod had posted) and they should send you one. Tell them your story.
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They know about it. They made the new needle seats. The seats were handed out at IRCA and if you were not at IRCHA you can get one from Hobby Services. I would send an email to hobby services ( see the link Rod had posted) and they should send you one. Tell them your story.
+1
i got mine at IRCHA, they know about it.
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It takes multiple emails to them. I sent about 8 emails all with a reply that they know of no issues... Telling me to send the motor into them and they would test it. I tried one last time after Rodney posted he got one and they stated they were currently out of stock, but they found one in the warehouse and would ship it to me... I think you have to get the "right" person on the other end to get a new part. Also, calling might get better results.
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I just got my new needle valve seat in the mail today, hopefully I'll have time tomorrow afternoon to check it out... As Rodney mentioned, very noticeable difference in diameter when trying to insert a 1.5 hex!
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Hobby Services don't extend to Australia. The Japan supplier won't admit fault and that has been a probkem so I am stuck. I can't find any instock to purchase either.
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Hobbico knows for sure there was an issue but won't admit it. Those that received new seats at IRCHA were fortunate that a responsible Hobbico rep was in the loop and handed them out. Probably why there was some fallout after IRCHA. Sometimes doing the right thing has negative results.
Cheers
Alan
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...
As a side question when did OS start making their Heli engines in China? My box has a sticker on the side which includes "MADE IN CHINA".
It's possible that the box is "MADE IN CHINA"
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hobbico knows for sure there was an issue but won't admit it. Those that received new seats at IRCHA were fortunate that a responsible Hobbico rep was in the loop and handed them out. Probably why there was some fallout after IRCHA. Sometimes doing the right thing has negative results.
Cheers
Alan
I think you are right Alan. OS Japan are still refusing to acknowledge that there is any issue at all. Meanwhile I am stuck with a motor that wont tune properly and has less power than my old 91 sized donk.
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I just saw this on another forum and it might help you in your quest... hopefully.
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=666796 (http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=666796)
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Hi Rodney, thanks for the link. I have passed that information on to my local hobby shop who supplied the engine to me.
Something I found interesting.
A friend has a YS 120SRX and he ordered a full carby the same as the 105 HZ-R from RCJapan. It came with the larger needle seat. He has his needle in a long way now but it performs more reliable than the YS carby.
The question I have is the larger needle seat the wrong one? or was it designed to have the larger needle seat?
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it is my understanding that it could be one of two things.
1 - this needle seat was simply machined wrong (this is my opinion)
2 - this motor was intended to be run on 30% nitro, meaning it needed more flow from the needle. (this seems to be the stance they are taking now. i gathered that from the linked post above...)
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Yeah well I ran 30% on my 105 it still tuned like crap with the bad seat.
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i believe it was machined wrong from the start. i was told that whoever passed out the needle seats at IRCHA stated that.
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I took the N7 out today for a run. I have removed a shim and decided to start and some leaner settings. Started at 1.25 on main and 1 on the mid. Instantly felt better but still rich. I got the main into 1 turn and about 3 clicks out.
I had a lot of trouble with check valve getting fuel and causing it to lean out. I put a new one one and the thing is an animal now!! Very happy although on the 4th tank right near the end it just cut out in a big powerloop only a couple of meters off the ground, I flipped it over but it hit hard on the skids. Broke a couple of transmission gears, the tail fin and the landing gear. I am a bit surprised on the damage considering it wasn't any more than a hard landing on it's belly. Just unlucky I guess.
Really not sure why it cut out. Glow plug was clean and looked brand new, which was put in the last flight I flew the helicopter before today. I have a suspicion it's a clunk or clunk line thing.
I have a couple of issues that some of you Synergy Guru's may be able to help me with. I keep getting about an inch worth of fuel in the check valve line that then blocks the valve and then the heli runs lean. It happens on both my OS 55 HZ-R N5C and OS 105 HZ-R N7. It drives me mad.
I am running a MOAS and black hayes clunk line in both N5C and N7 (ran it in helis for many years without issue). I don't seem to have any clunk issues with the N5C which runs to within 1mm/2mm of the back of the tank.
On the N7 I have it to the front edge of the slanted part of the fuel tank. I tried to the back but it wouldn't get into the fuel in front of the slant. Now it's at the front I have a suspicion that today the MOAS was out of the fuel when the engine cut on me when the heli was in a sort of upright position. The fuel would of been from bellow the edge of the slant to the back of the tank.
A couple of question's for the Synergy Guru's.
1. Why do I keep getting a lot of fuel in my check valve line?
2. What clunk line, clunk and length are you guy's running? What can I do to stop it flaming out on me in the future?
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(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u148/beans07_photos/th_2014-12-04231157_zps2b38d37d.jpg) (http://s167.photobucket.com/user/beans07_photos/media/2014-12-04231157_zps2b38d37d.jpg.html)
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For the fuel clogging the one way valve, i would not use a T for my vent. On my N7 I just pull the tubing off the valve next time you fill up. You can try this to see if it would work before you change any hose routing.
The way you have it now fuel could spill into the one way valve.
As far as flame out, is you fuel foaming in you tank? When hovering?
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Thanks for the tip. I haven't always ran this way and when I think about it the way you describe is the way I had done previously and don't remember problems.
As for the fuel foaming. No it is running very smooth, there is no foaming of the to k and the no irrational at all in the tail fin. One of the smoothest nitro helis I have ever had.
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I run a T in my pressure line, but I haven't had any fuel int he pressure line issues. I also make sure I don't fill the tank to the point fuel is touching the nipple.
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It's not filling the tank that's the issue. I am pretty it happens after I start and carry to the flight line.
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I noticed that today there was a little more high resonance vibration and a little bit of foaming in the tank. Don't recall seeing it before.
As I tuned it more it got better. When I installed the fan and clutch originally I think the hub was a little warped so both fan and hib need replacing which will help fix that little bit of vibration.
I am thinking of using some lynx fuel tubing and go to the back of the tank as it still cutting out towards the end of the tank when doing loops.
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Ok so I changed out the clunk to an OS bubbless and some lynx clunk line that is very soft. The heli didn't lean out until there was only a couple of drops left. Very happy with it now and it is performing very well. I think with the MOAS being so light it was jumping out of fuel at times, causing issues with the tune, the tail, and governor. Now the engine sounds great and is very happy when loaded up, comes down cool and less vibration. With the VBC and the governor it is working very very well. Really loving flying this heli.
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That's great news!
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Thats fantastic news!! :)
I use the OS Bubbleless clunk myself and have had nothing but good results with it. Keep us updated and happy flying!
Cheers,
Ross
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Thing's were going well for about 6 flight's until a cyclic servo failed one me.
Thus far I have an RJX tail servo randomly die after about 20 flights and now a cyclic when I have hit about 40 flights. The only electric's on it are servo's and a vbar unit and vbar control receiver. I would think it to be strange that the vbar would be killing them, there is no binding at all and gain around 70.
Anyone have any issues with RJX servo's failing?
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Thing's were going well for about 6 flight's until a cyclic servo failed one me.
Thus far I have an RJX tail servo randomly die after about 20 flights and now a cyclic when I have hit about 40 flights. The only electric's on it are servo's and a vbar unit and vbar control receiver. I would think it to be strange that the vbar would be killing them, there is no binding at all and gain around 70.
Anyone have any issues with RJX servo's failing?
My N7 started with RJX servos. I had a tail and cyclic both go dead in the first month or so. That said, I have a set of RJX on an E5 with 150+ flights. Not sure what to think there.
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I have RJX cyclic servos on two of mine and they've been great. I had two of the standard size HV tail servos go bad on me, though, and would not recommend the tail servo at all.
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I'm running the MOAS with good luck but I've struggled with the thin Lynx tubing. I had several of the fuel magnates dissolve on me and will not use them again. The lynx line is nice and flexible but it is very thin and I've had it get cut usually right where it goes on the tank bung nipple. I did pick up a Lynx bung and it seems to help but I still replace the line in the tank every few months and it is the first thing to check if your getting lean runs. Many people having success with the OS bubbleless but I've never used it? I believe with the MOAS and fuel line full of fuel that there is enough weight to heave it around inside the tank even with slightly thicker line.
As to the check valve I'd pick up a couple because IME they fail over time. The little silicon disc just loses it's properties much like fuel line will. I've seen them fail both open and closed. Synthetic after run like Evolution is a no no with check valves because it also eats the valve.
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Yes, the main needle seat. If you were able to get any of that wrench to go in, you have the bad one with the 1.7mm orifice.
What diameter orifice does the revised needle seat have ?
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The correct needle will not allow a 1.5mm allen key to slide through the hole. I've been in contact with Hobbico several times trying to explain this to them. They even sent me a new (incorrect) needle. This picture shows the wrong needle with the allen wrench passing through. And this is the one many sites have instock. The one on the left is the correct one. The one on the right with the recessed hole is the bad one.