Synergy Tech Support
Synergy Nitro Helicopters => Synergy N5 / N5c => Topic started by: CRFan1 on August 16, 2014, 05:18:03 PM
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First flight of the day and the thing is running perfect. I have benn flying helis about 6 weeks and progressing well and today I got the nerve to start doing some flips. Well...on one of my flips the motor quit inverted about 60 feet up :o I got it right side up right away but i couldn't get the rotor speed up enough so it went in on the skids which was very fortunate. In a testament to the Synergy toughness the only damage was a busted tank, landing skids, tail fin (cracked) and one elevator pitch rod. Amazing really. Everything else is spot on. Easy repair.
I guess I have to learn to manage my cyclic/collective :-\ I was at full rearward on the cyclic and near mid on the collective when it quit.
Although truth be told this N5 I bought is a bit custom As I think it has the 700 head with 606 mains ;)
She will be back in action next weekend!
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You should look into why the engine quit. It should not have quit on you in the middle of a flight. Did it lean out before it shut down?
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No it was running great.....my friend said I loaded the motor to much with the cyclic/collective which is possible I guess. This thing has a A LOT of cyclic pitch and I may tone it down some. I have quite a few flights on the motor and it is tuned well.
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I was at full rearward on the cyclic and near mid on the collective when it quit.
mid stick is 0 degrees collective pitch. The full cyclic should not kill your engine.
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Ok....that's a good point :)
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Does that N5 have Custom Carbon Frames?? Post a Pic? Sorry to hear of the unfortunate incident. How much pitch are you running and what Engine are you using? I sold my Carbon N5 with a YS56 to a buddy of mine whom sold it not to long ago.. There is only one in existence, if you have it, it is a very strong Bird..
Best Regards,
Kevin
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Don't think this has custom carbon frames? I am running an OS 55 HZR and so far it has been rock solid......other than quitting on me yesterday :o
I am running 13 degrees of pitch both ways. There is a pic in one of my previous posts :)
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I run the same engine in my n5c. The only times i had it quit was ran out of fuel or a hole or tear in my fuel line. Even when you load it up i dont see how that can kill the engine. How was the tank pressure on the previous flights when you ended each flight?
Rick
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I run the same engine in my n5c. The only times i had it quit was ran out of fuel or a hole or tear in my fuel line. Even when you load it up i dont see how that can kill the engine. How was the tank pressure on the previous flights when you ended each flight?
Rick
Kind of my thoughts too...Tank pressure is very good. I will be spending time looking at my tune before I get crazy with it again. :)
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Well, got all the parts for my N5 yesterday and finished setting her up last night :) A whopping $45 repair, which is not bad for a heli that fell 50 feet out of the sky, lol! Tomorrow I will be doing some testing and tuning and hopefully no issues. ;D
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Awesome , keep us posted on how it goes.
Rick
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Awesome , keep us posted on how it goes.
Rick
Hehe..well...It did not go to good. Chalk it up to learning. :o The heli was flying great for a bit but I found out what caused the initial problem and I can kick myself for not checking it in the first place >:( Turns out a Magnet was missing from the clutch bell and as I discovered, without warning would jump to idle and stay a bit before going back to full speed.. Not a big deal for you experienced pilots but it caught me off guard and I had a blade strike while trying to get it down because it did it right when I was about to land and I panicked a bit. Need blades, and a few other small things but it will be fixed pretty easily. I am guessing this is what happened last weekend in the middle of my flip and with the load I had on it it killed the motor. Good thing is I am learning and I won't be making these mistakes again. :)
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Oh bummer. :-[ glad it wasn't worse!
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dang that stinks man! triple check everything this go around! you will get it, and you will fall in love with this bird. a great bird to get comfortable with and learn on!
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Thanks Guys! Believe me...I am checking everything, haha. Oh and I know this bird is awesome because I got around 8 flights on it before the issue last weekend (probably when I lost the stupid magnet, lol). The tricky part is this is not a stock N5. It has the E6 head, main shaft and tail boom (stretched) and I am running 606mm Rails, etc. It flies awesome though. ;D
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Turns out a Magnet was missing from the clutch bell and as I discovered, without warning would jump to idle and stay a bit before going back to full speed.
I don't mean to seem antagonistic here but this may not be the problem with your engine. The reason I say this is if you are missing the magnet your gov is sensing, ( remember there are two magnets set to opposite polarity) then your governor would not engage in the first place. Your engine would simply be running off of the curves you have set up in your radio. Now if the magnet came off during that flight, then again the governor would simply quit controlling the throttle ant your curves would once again be in control of your throttle. Since your Governor won't activate until approx 40% throttle your engine should not go to idle no matter what happens with those pesky little magnets.
You should check your curves to make sure they are good curves and you can fly your helicopter on them. There is nothing wrong with flying on curves. In fact I would suggest that until you have plenty of experience with Nitro and tuning your motor that you remain on curves and just leave the gov disabled.
As for the engine going back to an idle in flight, again I would look to whats actually controlling the throttle. Make absolutely sure there are no weird mixes enabled in your radio. Make certain the curves you have set for throttle are good. Keep the governor out of the mix and go fly. If you don't have to change any curves or disable any mixes and the helicopter performs with the governor off (which it did for 6 flights if the magnet was missing the entire time) then you know you have a solid engine and solid curves. Then you can look to the governor for issues.
I highly suggest you learn about throttle curves. You can manage your head speed with them very simply. And you should ALWAYS have a good throttle curve behind any governor.
If you need help with throttle curves let me know and I will provide you with some links to more detailed info.
I hope this helps!
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Thanks...excellent info and that is a good point! As an FYI I know both magnets were installed when I got the heli from my friend (all he flies are Synergy Helis) and probably were in there for the "good" flights :)
As far as tuning the motor believe me, I have been flying Nitro, Electric and Gasser planes for quite some time and consider myself a good "tuner". The nitro engines I own never dead stick :)
That being said, I will be checking the throttle curves (I am familiar with them but not an expert by any means) and taking the Gov out of the mix to make sure and eliminate that. I would appreciate you pointing me in the right direction for some good curves for the N5.....thanks.
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Great! Then once you get the governor out of the mix you have most of it whipped! The curves are simple really! And I forgot one thing, Always tune your engine with the governor disabled. The governor will mask tuning issues so always just disable it when you are going to check your tuning.
Jay
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Great! Then once you get the governor out of the mix you have most of it whipped! The curves are simple really! And I forgot one thing, Always tune your engine with the governor disabled. The governor will mask tuning issues so always just disable it when you are going to check your tuning.
Jay
Thanks...that makes sense regarding the tuning. Look forward to getting the throttle curve info. from you ;) :D 8)
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Here is some basic instruction written by Michael Pruitt.
http://www.raptortechnique.com/throttlecurve.htm (http://www.raptortechnique.com/throttlecurve.htm)
Here is some info on Throttle to cyclic mixing
http://www.raptortechnique.com/throttlemix.htm (http://www.raptortechnique.com/throttlemix.htm)
Michael wrote this stuff many years ago. The basics haven't changed and for your helicopter to perform well it must be set up properly no matter what electronics you have on it. This site I am referring you to has some stuff that is so basic that it is for a beginner to all parts of the hobby. So you will just have to skim some of the sections to get past that stuff and get to the things that you may need information about. Here is a link to the page on his site with drop downs that will take you to many areas with detailed information about those items.
http://www.raptortechnique.com/index-raptor.html (http://www.raptortechnique.com/index-raptor.html)
That happens to be on the raptor but he has those types of pages for many helicopters. Michael doesn't fly much anymore but he made a large contribution to the hobby with this website.
I hope a simple programming change can indeed fix whatever issue there is with that engine for you! I have run several OS55 HZ motors and all have been solid. The only other thing I can think of would be if it were the regulated motor maybe there is something going on with that regulation system. I have heard from time to time of some pilots complaining about the regulators on OS engines.
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Thanks again...I honestly do not think its the engine per se. Something else is going on and I will figure it out. I am even going to change the supply lines inside and outside of the tank. :)
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I just noticed I only need one more post to get rid of the pink! So here it is!
Let us know what you find on the issue. I am particularly interested as I have been on a four year vacation from RC. Kind of exciting to be back in the mix so to speak! Have a Great Day!
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yea, you need curves with any IC motor. I tune with my Gov one though, I have tuned with it off and really didn't see any benefit. guys do things differently, as long as the end result is the same, that's all that matters.
you do have a "V" curve setup in your radio in IU1 and IU2, right? meaning curve looks similar to this - 100, 80, 70, 80, 100......that is a example though, the numbers mean nothing, just representation. sounds like when you go inverted and you give negative collective/throttle your going to an idle instead of back up in the rpm range.
I just recently started flying nitro, but been flying gassers for a long time. gasser curves are much harder to get since they don't have a liner throttle like a nitro. but your normal curve will start with your idle %, once you get in hover, you flip into IU1 which is a v curve, as your IU2 is too.
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Use transparent fuel lines and watch for bubbles.
My $0.02
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Thanks guys I will check it all out and keep you updated of results though it may be a week or two.... ;)
Chips, you ARE going to help me figure this out, lol :)
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Nope, gona watch and learn. LOL not :P
I hung with Gasser Mike ar IRCHA a few times. He's one cool cat. 8)
I need more info on cyclic mixing to throttle....
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yea, you need curves with any IC motor. I tune with my Gov one though, I have tuned with it off and really didn't see any benefit. guys do things differently, as long as the end result is the same, that's all that matters.
you do have a "V" curve setup in your radio in IU1 and IU2, right? meaning curve looks similar to this - 100, 80, 70, 80, 100......that is a example though, the numbers mean nothing, just representation. sounds like when you go inverted and you give negative collective/throttle your going to an idle instead of back up in the rpm range.
I just recently started flying nitro, but been flying gassers for a long time. gasser curves are much harder to get since they don't have a liner throttle like a nitro. but your normal curve will start with your idle %, once you get in hover, you flip into IU1 which is a v curve, as your IU2 is too.
So I am flying an Ikon and this is what I am going to do so I can test. I set up throttle curves as a start in Normal (11, 25,50,75,100) and flight mode 1 (100, 75, 60,75,100). Flight mode 2 is a straight 60% (although admittedly the directions in the Ikon are a bit confusing) across the board as that is what Ikon recommends for Gov use......Or should I still have a curve for Gov use? Ikon also allows 3 modes on a switch, 1 and 2 have no Gov and 3 does. So in essence i can flip to the 3rd flight mode and go to up 2 and be on the Gov.
If I am off base here someone please chime in :)
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ok, so not very farmilar with the ikon gov but I just read through the wizard instructions, and i see where they want the flat line curve. that makes things a little different. if you lose your gov pickup (magnet), and it cannot see how fast the motor is spinning, it will default back to the flat line throttle curve. i don't really like this idea, but its what ikon recommends, so i don't know what to tell you, sorry.... i am more accustomed to setting my curves where i want them, then just turning the gov on for added help, if i lose my magnet, it falls on the curve i have set and flys just fine....
i really wish i had more experience with the ikon gov.....maybe chris sexton can chime in here and help you more with that part of it. sorry i couldn't be of more help here, but we are out of my realm with the ikon gov...
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Nope, gona watch and learn. LOL not :P
I hung with Gasser Mike ar IRCHA a few times. He's one cool cat. 8)
I need more info on cyclic mixing to throttle....
thank you sir! i had so much fun meeting everyone at IRCHA! i got to meet a ton of guys i have been talking to on the forum here for a long time. really a lot of fun! the whole week i felt like a kid at Christmas!
as far as cyclic/throttle mixing, it really depends on the radio. but its very simple. you setup a mix in your TX to progressively apply throttle as you progressively apply cyclic input. you will have to play with exactly how much % it adds and where though, as throttle linkage geometry plays a part in this. it may very well be the same % with an all N7's, i don't know, i am used to doing this on gasser conversions, where they are all different and the layout is never the same. basically custom throttle setups....
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ok, so not very farmilar with the ikon gov but I just read through the wizard instructions, and i see where they want the flat line curve. that makes things a little different. if you lose your gov pickup (magnet), and it cannot see how fast the motor is spinning, it will default back to the flat line throttle curve. i don't really like this idea, but its what ikon recommends, so i don't know what to tell you, sorry.... i am more accustomed to setting my curves where i want them, then just turning the gov on for added help, if i lose my magnet, it falls on the curve i have set and flys just fine....
i really wish i had more experience with the ikon gov.....maybe chris sexton can chime in here and help you more with that part of it. sorry i couldn't be of more help here, but we are out of my realm with the ikon gov...
Hey thanks...Because I am a relative beginner it is probably better I fly on a throttle curve anyway for now, to eliminate any other complexity. Its not like I am doing hard core 3D so a curve should do me just fine. Once I replace the magnets I can test it out and Maybe go back to it but if I like how it flies on the curve I will just let it rip. ;) I fly my old (C)Raptor on a curve just fine, lolol.
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These might help with your iKON Gov setup issues.
Team iKON - Nitro Gov Basic Setup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYO4Upkrp8A#ws)
Here is a link to a playlist i made on iKON setup for both electric and nitro/gas.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxiWUDzOfMoFRJM93he_yPcJTOA6LuK-r (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLxiWUDzOfMoFRJM93he_yPcJTOA6LuK-r)
If you have any questions the videos don't answer, please let me know!
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^^^^Chris is never far from an IKon question!!! i will watch that video too this evening, i have an ikon at the house i may try the gov on one day...
so this is what my curves on my helix prototype gasser look like. (gasser curves are different from nitro curves, gassers do not have a liner throttle.) i have only worked on one nitro, so i am still learning the nitro curves...
Normal - 0, 13, 26, 32, 46, 75, 100 (i have a DX9 that will allow me to have up to 7 points.
IU 1 - 100, 65, 32, 65, 100 - 1950 HS
IU 2 - 100, 72, 39, 72, 100 - 2100 HS
they are not "V" curves, they are really "U" curves. put the expo in there and they take a U shape. i assume nitro will be much more like electric "V" curves. gassers hover around 30% throttle, and most power is extracted between 30% and 70% of the throttle, not much more is extracted after 70%....
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Thanks Chris and Gasser! Chris I have it set up pretty much the same with the exception of slightly lower head speeds but I am going to use that to do a double check! :D Great video!
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Well she is all back together and waiting on some new "FBLRotors" swash plate cyclic turnbuckle links which get here Friday :) Snap those on and all that is left is a final set up. Flying her on Sunday and testing out my Throttle curves etc. Chris I double checked my Throttle linkage set up in the Ikon and I am dead on with your settings and geometry except my 'idle setting in normal is 11% and my head speeds are 1750, 1850 and 1950. This bird is stretched and I am running 606 mains and 96 tail. Plus as a newbie heli pilot it seems 1800-1900 is good for me right now....
Oh and thanks to Chips for donating some spares!! ;)
I will keep you guys posted...... ;D
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don't feel bad bro....I destroyed my second E5 (550 format) this morning on its maiden voyage. too bad I didn't take video.
I had to re-level the swash after I had installed the head due to a computer misshap (my fat fingers), and totally forgot the elevator servo horn bolt.....
I flew for about 2min, did about 15 tick tocs (looking for an elevator bounce...), was in total shock that it wasn't bouncing and looked so good, went into a hover, snatched rear elevator and returned the stick to center easily, went forward elevator to correct, and nothing happened....I started to piro to get the tail from the ground and hopefully get the disk level, but no go, she went in...got into hold quick though, so not horrible, but pretty damn bad...lol!
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Doh! Bummer.
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don't feel bad bro....I destroyed my second E5 (550 format) this morning on its maiden voyage. too bad I didn't take video.
I had to re-level the swash after I had installed the head due to a computer misshap (my fat fingers), and totally forgot the elevator servo horn bolt.....
I flew for about 2min, did about 15 tick tocs (looking for an elevator bounce...), was in total shock that it wasn't bouncing and looked so good, went into a hover, snatched rear elevator and returned the stick to center easily, went forward elevator to correct, and nothing happened....I started to piro to get the tail from the ground and hopefully get the disk level, but no go, she went in...got into hold quick though, so not horrible, but pretty damn bad...lol!
Aww Crap!!! That has to be PAINFUL! She will rise again I hope. :) I know the feeling though. I get 10 great flights over a couple weekends. Than the next weekend one flight and crash (engine died). Fix it, next weekend 1 flight and crash (my fault mostly, lol). I am hoping for 2 Flights this weekend, haha. 8) 8) Hope the rebuild goes well. One thing is for sure, I have got to know this Heli very well...... :o
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I hear you. Rebuilding my e5 was second nature after doing it the week before.
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yea man. no big deal. I have all the parts at the house to fix her up, but I went ahead and ordered everything I would need again too. that way I can replace my spares.....
the E5 is a very strong machine, takes a crash well. I am considering nylon, or Teflon, whatever I can find, for the skid bolts though. the last crash I had broke my frames right where the skids attach to them. that was when my ESC caught on fire. maybe some frame savers for the landing gear mounts would be a great idea! like the ones for the canopy mounts.
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Yeah that is what took out my frames to
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Just an update on my N5....She is all back together and rocking! I got some shakedown flights in today and let my buddy ring it out pretty good and she flies great. The motor is tuned great and the throttle curves I have set seem to be pretty good. 8)
Time to fly that sucker and enjoy it..... :)
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Nice!
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Sweet!!!
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Awesome dude!
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Thanks guys! :D Now I need to start saving up for an E5 so I can add to the fleet, hehehe