Synergy Tech Support
Other Manufacturer => General Heli Support => Topic started by: Grees01 on November 07, 2015, 07:04:38 PM
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Hello all. I'm grateful that Synergy is willing to offer support to people who are having issues with other brand helicopters, so thanks in advance for any and all help. I built a Goblin 570 about this time last year. All stock with the exception of the lynx main gear, as at the time Goblin had not come out with the delrin cnc gear. I had done some reading about the failure of the earlier style molded gear and didn't want to run into any issues on a 2000.00 + heli build. No cheap parts were installed on heli. BK 8001hv on the cyclic, and 8005hv on the tail. FBL unit Ikon, Castle talon 120hv speed control (I liked the option of 6 or 12s and the heavy duty bec circuit) less complicated just no logging, and rpm out. Pulse 5000 mah 45c batteries, Quantum 4125-1100 kv motor. Didn't have any issues with the assembly nor the setup. I have flown this (basically a little hovering in my yard) probably a dozen times since I built it last year. It has never been crashed. The radio is set up to run external governor controlled thru the Ikon with head speeds of 2100, 2200, and 2300 rpm. In order to get this head speed I needed to increase motor pinion by 1 tooth from 21 (stock) to 22 (factory SAB part). Sorry forgot (It does have a hobby wing rpm sensor wired into the motor wiring and to the Ikon for rpm signal.). The helicopter files, but I have a shake in the head that I just have not been able to get rid of. Very annoying. At 2100 rpm, normal mode its almost not noticeable, you can see it if you look real close and the heli is close to you. At 2200 way more pronounced, cant miss is, a little uncomfortable for a novice pilot like myself, at 2300 still there only the frequency of the vibration is faster. I checked the balance on the stock SAB 3d black line blades with a Maglev balancer, but I don't have a digital scale that can read that high, but on the balancer one blade is heavier. Ok, so I checked both blades for cg and marked them. Aligned the blades at the root and tip and cg is very very close between the two. OK, so added some scotch tape on the cg point of the light blade until they balanced, and tried again. The same issue. Double checked set up, swash level, collective pitch +-12%, cyclic +-10%. Blade tracking, no real progress, left it alone for some months, later again trying to resolve shaking, ordered SAB cnc version delrin main gear and installed, slightly tighter lash, (I like the fit better) re checked set up again, no faults found. Tried running with slightly looser blades, and tighter a few flights, no real significant changes, still shakes. Called helidirect, that's who a bought the kit from, talked to them for a while, recommended to double check main shaft, and feathering shaft for straightness, I didn't pull the main shaft out, but did spin it up with no head and no tail blades and shaft looks straight to me, the feathering shaft I rolled on a nice piece of glass and I cant see that its bent. Searched all forums and Google for answers, seems to be quite a bit of discussion of low rpm wobbles, with several recommended ideas, none that consistently worked. Found out that SAB manufactures a set of delrin dampers for the head that is supposed to eliminate head shake, OK, I ordered them and tried it, seemed to change the rpm that the problem occurs, but only slightly. Tried lowering the gain in the Ikon settings by selecting a 500 sized model instead of 600. lowered the cyclic gain by a few points doing that, maybe very slight change in vibration, but problem still evident. The very last thing that I tried was replacing the main aluminum center hub, have heard of some issues with machining being slightly out, and I was able to talk helidirect into sending me one. Re assembled with stock dampers and re checked, no changes still wobbles / shakes. I need some help here, I'm not real comfortable flying this machine and I spent a lot of time not to mention money to have a nice helicopter, and it is nice, but doesn't fly nice IMHO. Thank you in advance for any help that is offered.
Side note (I'm working on the cash to buy a synergy e5) have read a lot of good press on Synergy products. :)
Glen
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There are a number of issues:
1) Main shaft straightness. Very hard to tell if the shaft has a slight bend with just the naked eye. You either need to roll it on glass or use a dial indicator.
2) Head shakes. Mechanical issues include notching main blocks bearings, bent main shaft, unbalanced blades. Electronic issues include exposure of FBL unit to high vibrations (high bona fide helicopter vibrations and/or not enough padding) or too high gains.
3) Blade balance. Generally speaking, most CF blades from reputable companies come pretty well balanced. However, if there is a concern about blade balance, you would need to measure the (1) respective weights, (2) the chordwise COG, and (3) the spanwise COG. With the Maglev balancer (http://www.helidirect.com/helioption-maglev-blade-balancer-for-450-to-700-class-blades.html), you are only balancing the spanwise COG. The Maglev balancer (http://www.helidirect.com/helioption-maglev-blade-balancer-for-450-to-700-class-blades.html) does not tell you about weight or chordwise COG. I believe the best blade balancer for chordwise COG is the Koll Rotor Balancer (http://www.ronlund.com/rcheli-prod/TOOLBA/MA3000-52.html) (which also balances spanwise COG just as well). Still, you would need a decent digital gram scale, ideally one with 2 decimal places like the AWS 200g/0.01g scale (http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Scales-ACP-200-Digital/dp/B003STEIYY/ref=pd_sim_79_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=41KQN5EHIfL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=0R6GNH2WBMCBN4TM76EE). The SAB 570mm blades weight about 113.99g each (5.09g for stock 95mm SAB tail blades), so a 200g max scale should work fine for this purpose.
4) Top main block bearing. Make sure to not overshim this bearing in an effort to remove all the up/down play. My bearing fell apart mid flight.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11690&pictureid=100301)
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11690&pictureid=100302)
On postmortem, the top main bearing (bottom left) fell apart, the main shaft got notched, and the shims (bottom right) were all deformed.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11690&pictureid=100307)
On the rebuild, I used a Synergy shaft collar (10mm ID) to remove the up/down play.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11690&pictureid=100554)
I used a few shims on top of the main bearing so that the Synergy collar would not interfere with block assembly.
Top of main bearing without shims.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11690&pictureid=100551)
Same area with shims added to the top of the main bearing.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11690&pictureid=100552)
I then added the Synergy collar on top.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11690&pictureid=100553)
With similar electronics, my Synergy E5 with 556/96 blades weighs 2,930g (without LiPo's) which is 188g more than my Goblin 570 with 570/95 blades at 2,742g. After flying the Synergy E5 and the Goblin 570 back to back, I decided to just sell the Goblin 570 and keep the Synergy E5.
The following pictures demonstrate the size difference between the Synergy E5 and Goblin 570.
Goblin 570 (bottom) and Synergy E5 next to G570.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11059&pictureid=99069)
Goblin 570 (left), Align T-Rex 550 v1 (middle), Synergy E5 (right)
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11059&pictureid=98874)
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11059&pictureid=98872)
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11059&pictureid=98873)
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Thank you Curmudgeon for the reply. I will take a look at the scale and balancer. I am unable to see any pics listed or linked to your reply however. Something I am doing wrong?
Glen
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Ordered the scale, no biggie less than 20.00 amazon, be here Monday. The Koll rotor balancer however is another story. Not in stock at the linked location, and fairly pricey. Likely 200.00 + with shipping.
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I did add enough shims to the main shaft to eliminate any up and down play as per the manual. And when checking for any drag as the result of being shimmed too tight, I found it to rotate normally with very little to no drag. Is this lack of vertical play something that could cause a wobble / vibration problem, or only possible damage to bearings?
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I did add enough shims to the main shaft to eliminate any up and down play as per the manual. And when checking for any drag as the result of being shimmed too tight, I found it to rotate normally with very little to no drag. Is this lack of vertical play something that could cause a wobble / vibration problem, or only possible damage to bearings?
No the lack of vertical play is what you want but you do not want to put any axial preload on those radial bearings. It's important to shim it just right in very small increments, I know SAB sells shims in a variety of thicknesses, Amain caries some nice bearing shim sets from Yokomo that have lots of 0.05mm, 0.1mm, and 0.2mm thicknesses in each pack. If you've gotten the slop out to within 0.05mm you know you're not preloading the bearing.
If the harder dampers made a change in the RPM range of the wobble then that's probably where you should concentrate. Did the delrin dampers push the wobble to a higher or lower RPM? Have you tried running a faster headspeed? You might also try the stock dampers and play with how many shims you preload them with.
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Not to thread jack.. But I have a similar issue.. No play in the main shaft.. But I get the shakes on E7SE. My desired head speeds where 1400, 1900, & 2150. I am fine on the low 1400 & high 2150.. Which were to be my "play'n round" head speeds.. Figured I'd stay in 1900 normally.. But I'm unable to run it.. The heli shakes between 1750-2025 range. Being unable to tune this out via the FBL unit or following the manuals mechanical order.. Even tried Ralph's Progressive damping system(blue,blue,blue & blue,blue,green) still shake'n.. So I just run 1400, 1700, & 2150. Love'n the bird but really want the 1950 in place of the 1700.. It's just too low for my preferred normal feel in the air. I end up just staying on the 2150. Danny, are u saying I could use different shims to give different preloads on my head axle/spindle/dampers? I have the stock 1mm shim on each side of the head block against the dampers per manual. Suggestions.
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Cml, you will see those shakes with stiffer dampers. Ralphs system would probably run smoothly for you using blue, green, white with the blue ones inside and white ones closest to the blade grips. Softer dampers should get you right. You can preload the dampers with shims to make the head tighter. Tighter dampers usually have some wobble in lower rpm ranges. Softer dampers let the blades flap a little and soak up the wobbles that can be associated with certain head speeds.
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Thanks, I'll order some color from Ralph then & try out that combo..
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Get extras ;) The softer ones can wear a little quicker if you beat on em. Plus you might find that you want to soften it up a little more to make it happy :)
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Hi Danny, thanks for the reply. "Thread Jack" that's comedy. Well I tried re balancing the blades again. Was a little off with the maglev, but not much, its currently assembled with the stock dampeners. In terms of shims, there are only 2 brass spacers on each side of the center head block according to the manual, doesn't say anything about adding more shims, the only shims that I have are the ones that came with the delrin dampeners. There is another spacer between the outer blade grip bearing and the inner thrust bearing. I don't have anything like these. To the best of my recal with the stock dampeners the wobble was more prevalent at 2100 and improved slightly at 2200 and 2300, with the delrin dampeners more prevalent at higher rpms and little better at lower rpms. I'm doing a little flying this morning, just some basic hovering and orientation exercises, maybe these dampeners need to "break in"? Wish I had a set of rail main blades to mount up just to check.
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See attached image please.
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Can anyone explain why I can not see the pictures that was supposedly listed in curmudgeon's reply?
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I just didn't know if you were running any shims to tighten up the stock dampers, in which case you could remove some to soften it up. I used to have a G630 and they recommended running some shims after break-in to keep the head super tight. I would recommend flying it for a while at higher headspeeds to break in the dampers. I would wager that around 2450 it should smooth out. Goblins tend to like more headspeed anyway. Give it some stick time at higher speeds. Maybe drop it back down and see if it doesn't clear up after half a dozen flights or so.
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Can anyone explain why I can not see the pictures that was supposedly listed in curmudgeon's reply?
Maybe the web browser? I am using Firefox.
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Can anyone explain why I can not see the pictures that was supposedly listed in curmudgeon's reply?
I can't see them on my phone but I see them on my PC.
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Hi, and you can see the pictures that you referenced in your first post?
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Wow, that's weird, internet explorer 11 or firefox 42.0 no pics. Is there something you have to click on?
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I use Chrome.
On my PC and on my phone.
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No luck, tried with chrome too. Are the pictures listed within the post, or external to the post?
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Curmudgeon, you ran a set of rail 556 mains on your goblin right? How did that work out compared to the stock SAB blades?
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I set up the Goblin 570 to run on 6S. My LiPo's came back substantially cooler with the Synergy 556 blades than with the stock SAB 570 blades. However, the Synergy E5 autos a lot better than the Goblin 570 with either the 556 or the 570 blades. The tighter I adjusted the tail belt, the faster the main blades would stop spinning during autorotations.
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Thanks Curmdugeon, did you have any issues with blades being out balance or any QC issues with your blades?
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The AWS 200gm scale showed up. I removed the main and tail blades and checked balance. After removing tape there was a weight difference of approx. .11gm on the main blades. 120.31 and 120.42. Re balanced and according to the scale, identical in weight. 120.41 (the scale does move around a point or two). Tail blades were quite close, 47.3gm and 47.1gm. I left it alone. Probably did 10 flights Sunday. Still shaking. My wife took a video with my phone but one of the settings was wrong and the video is not usable. Weather is lousy right now. Blowing like no tomorrow, and about to rain. Really bugging me, that I can pin down the cause of this problem. Any chance that the stock servo horns that came with the servos which are a bit flimsy, (they have some flex to them) could be causing me an issue?
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Any chance that the stock servo horns that came with the servos which are a bit flimsy, (they have some flex to them) could be causing me an issue?
I don't think so. Especially if damping affects the RPM range of the wobble. That said, plastic does flex and I do prefer to use more substantial horns than the regular plastic ones. The carbon reinforced ones work well as do secraft v1s and both should help to reduce or prevent gear damage in a crash.
Did you try running a higher headspeed? How tight are your blade grips? Perhaps you could try lightening up the clamping force on them a little and make sure they're about equal. Don't run them loose, but they don't have to be insane tight either.
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Hi Danny. Thanks for the reply. I haven't tried changing the head speeds. Really I am close to the upper limit of rpms on a 6s system, at least according to the manual. It shows 2450 being the max with a 6s system and that is with a slightly bigger speed control than I have. I could maybe squeeze 100 more rpm out of it with a 23 tooth pinion but I would be maxed out. Then anything lower puts me in the rpm range that I am currently having trouble with. I could go lower, 1800, 1900,2000, my current normal mode is 2100, with iu1 2200 and iu2 2300. That's an option. I feel uncomfortable flying it with the wobble. Seems like it has to be hard on all the components, bearings, ect, ect. Does anyone know anybody here locally (Los Angeles CA area) that I might be able to meet with and have a look at this thing together. I know its very difficult to diagnose problems remotely. Again thanks so much for you help and feedback.
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Sorry forgot to mention blade grip tightness. I have tried it quite tight, normally tight, a little loose, tightening them up pretty tight after the heli has spooled up and then back down, and nothing that I have tried with regard to blade grip tightness has eliminated the wobbles. :(
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Here's a few pictures for whatever it might be worth. I didn't want to post a bunch of pictures on your server so there listed here on Google pictures at the bottom last 6 images. These are from this morning.
https://goo.gl/photos/NK76GitWpSrx8qiL9
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get your head speed up to around 2500, and fly the crap out of it for 10-15 flights and see how that goes. I have a few friends that have these helis, and they fly them around 2500 or so and they don't have this problem, even with BK servos, so I would definitely recommend you bumping the hs up to there, and breaking the dampers in good. if there is still an issue, then lets dig deeper. what you think?
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Hi Mike, thank you for your reply. Well, I could try. I'm not sure how much more overhead I have left on the esc. I checked my settings for governor and I made a mistake. I'm at 2200, 2300, 2400, currently. Ikon is controlling the governor with the addition of an external speed sensor. Ikon software doesn't tell me where I run out of room or max out, I can type in any value I want (5000 rpm) and no warnings!. If I choose to have the Castle Talon control the governor, I'll get a warning about overhead when I set the value to high. The manual seems to indicate that 2450 is the max speed possible on 6S with a variety of motors and speed control combinations, take a look at the attached manual page a post or so back. So really I'm not sure what to think??????
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As long as temperatures are ok and the governor is not bogging there's nothing to worry about. Those numbers are recommendations, and since the 6s setup is in the "sport flying" bracket headspeed is specified lower. No reason you can't fly at 2500. Go up a tooth on the motor pulley if you have to.
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Ok will give it a try. Definitely going to need to bump the motor pulley up another tooth to hit that rpm and have a little overhead left though I think.
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:) Hello all, We have some progress. After two days of horrible weather, today is pretty nice. So I was preparing to work on the Goblin and change the motor pulley to the 23 tooth, and run it up to 2500 rpm, and I thought to myself, wait a minute, before I do that let me try something. So I went into the Ikon settings and lowered the cyclic gain by 2 points (its set as a 500 size heli) also I had noticed when checking on the governor setup, that really I couldn't get any more head speed out of it without changing the pulley. So really on IU2 it was pretty much maxed out. I thought ok, I'm going to lower everything by 100 rpm. So normal 2100, IU1 2200, IU3 2300. Leaves a little bit of overhead on top. Flew it, Its better, almost perfect at 2100, and 2200, still has a little shake at 2300, I'm not exactly sure what to attribute the change to. "lowering the cyclic gain by 2 pts"? or "dropping all the HS by 100 rpm", or maybe like you guys have suggested "the dampers are just getting broken in". I really don't have the skills yet to put this thing thru some aggressive flight maneuvers, but I'm working on it. In the meantime it has been a pretty good day for me. Thanks to all you who took the time to read and reply and share some feedback with me. I do appreciate it.
P.S. I have been talking to my wife about a new synergy E5. She almost on board with the idea, we have reached some sort of tentative compromise. I will be getting one pretty soon. ;)
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Great to hear! I bet you would love the E5! Let us know when you get it. My E5 626mm stretch is one of the funnest helis I've ever flown.
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Thanks Danny. What do you like in the way of electronics? Motors? FBL units? Servos?
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Everyone has their personal preferences. I tend to gravitate towards MKS or Futaba servos. I run a variety of motors from Kontronik, Xnova, KDE, and Scorpion. They all serve me well with plenty of power and no issues. I run Kontronik ESCs exclusively and MSH Brain flybarless units.
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:) Hi Danny. Picked up a barely used Synergy E5 airframe, and Scorpion 4025-1100 KV motor also barely used for 375.00. I was hoping to be able to buy everything new, but it just really adds up quick and spending 2000.00+ on another heli is earning me some bad vibes here. Here's the link to the post. http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t799133p1/?p=6535219#RR
Talked to guy on the phone that owns its, (Dave Hoskins) very nice, 33 yrs old he just picked up a sponsorship with Goblin. Bert Kammerer is his sponsor. Air frame and motor, that's it. Should be shipping out tomorrow. I asked him if he lock tightened the set screw on the front trans drive gear that so many people seem to forget with catastrophic results, he said "oh yea, sure did" We'll see when it shows up, looks quite clean in the photos, oh yea, he threw in a pulse 4100 mah battery for me too. Nice event coming up in December in Florida, I'd like to go. Anyone from Synergy going to be there. Supposed to be a pretty good sized event?
https://www.facebook.com/orlandoblowout/?fref=ts
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Awesome deal man! That's great to hear, I think you will love it. It's such a versatile heli. The stretch configurations are a lot of fun and disc loading gets lower the bigger you go, so you can tailor it to fly however you want. With holiday sales approaching you should be able to do pretty well on electronics. Have fun with it and keep us posted on the build!
I've never gone to OHB personally, it's a long way and a tough time of year for me to travel, but it does tend to draw a lot of attention and some great pilots.
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I was there last year its a great event.
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Castle has a sale now till the 22, 27% off
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Hi Cliff, thanks for the reply. My wife and I are talking about the idea of me going to the event. She wants me to go. And I would like to attend. Are you planning on attending this year? It would be great to meet some of the Synergy people in person, make some new friends and such. I hope to be there. I have seen the sale on Castle Creations products on Helidirect and such. Nice pricing. MKS has a nice promo package on a few sets of their servos also. Might give them a try on this next machine. Anyone out there running Spartan Vortex FBL? or the new Mikado V Bar Neo? I'd like to hear some feedback if anyone has some to share. What is the recommended battery size for the E5 with a 6S setup? (4100 Mah?) maybe?
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I really want to go again this year but its Thursday till Sunday I can't take that much time off work, Shame I had a great time
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I understand, neither can I really. Was hoping to leave early from work on Friday. Fly at night, spend Saturday, and part of Sunday, and return home Sunday night. I'm not sure if I can make it work either. What airport did you flight into?
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the neo is the better of the 2 IMO. the neo is easier to tune, and just flat out flys better. the Spartan tail is extremely hard to get perfect, the neo is almost unbeatable right out of the box. the neo also offers the rescue option for guy who want to utilize it, which is a great confidence builder for a newer pilot (when used like it should be).
I fly my E5 6S with 5000ma packs, I only get 3:30 of hard 3D, so I wouldn't go much lower than 4500, IMO the flights would be too short.
FYI Bert is no longer employed by Goblin, he is only a sponsored Goblin pilot. Bert may have initiated the conversation between the fellow and the team manager though....?
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I drove up, I live very south west Florida, takes about 5hrs