Synergy Tech Support
Synergy Electric Helicopters => Synergy E5 => Topic started by: NKY Heli Guy on January 02, 2013, 04:31:55 PM
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I bought the Western Robotics Super Hurcules for my BEC prior to receiving my Heli. I have heard and been told by others that the BEC is best placed toward the front away from the receiver/flybarless unit, since this is the case the output wires (wires connected to receiver) would need servo extensions to reach the back of Heli and where the receiver is. I called Western Robotics support today just to verify my set up is correct. They told me in no way should I extend the output wires leading to the receiver that in fact the only wires that should be extended should be the inputs.
If this is the case my BEC should be placed toward the back of the Heli. Western Robotics said there would be no interference with the receiver in this scenario.... Where should I mount the BEC now? Exterior on the frame?. Does anyone have an E5 using the super Hurcules? Help
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I was going to mount my CC BEC Pro in the front under the ESC using the servo extensions. So is this a bad idea then?
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I was going to mount my CC BEC Pro in the front under the ESC using the servo extensions. So is this a bad idea then?
Seriously? Math and Ohms Law proves there is almost no difference seen at the plug ends. Electrically, there is no reason that the BEC can't be mounted on the front. The designer of the E5 has his on the front! Reinvent the wheel if you must but, mine rolls fine.
See post number 10: http://synergyrchelicopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1236.0 (http://synergyrchelicopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1236.0)
Rich
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That's what I'm going to do. Going to give a call in a second, waiting for the dealership to call so we can pick up my wife's car.
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In addition I wouldn't recommend putting anything on the rear of the frame unless necessary. The E5 needs weight the up front to get the CG correct.
Cheers
Alan
Alan Butler
Team Synergy
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Is it ok to put the receiver in the rear though? That was my plan.
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I previously used a WR Hercules Super BEC http://www.western-robotics.com/hercules-super-BEC_hp.html. (http://www.western-robotics.com/hercules-super-BEC_hp.html.) The older version has 5.2V/6V/8.4/9.0V. The voltage options of the newer version may be better for voltages used with helicopters, 5.2V/6V/7.4V/8.2V.
The WR Hercules Super BEC seems more robust than the BEC Pro. The WR is rated for up to 14S, where the BEC Pro has had reported issues when on 12S.
However, I had issues with the Spektrum telemetry signal when using the WR. This may be due to the fact that the WR does not use a ferrite ring, but many will point out that a ferrite ring is not needed when running 2.4 GHz signals. Still, the WR output wires are too stiff to easily add a ferrite ring.
I was also concerned that the WR was only rated to 10A cont/15A max, and the BEC Pro is rated to 20A peak. On 6S, the BEC pro is rated to 13A max continuous.
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Is it ok to put the receiver in the rear though? That was my plan.
It will be fine.
Rich
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I previously used a WR Hercules Super BEC http://www.western-robotics.com/hercules-super-BEC_hp.html. (http://www.western-robotics.com/hercules-super-BEC_hp.html.) The older version has 5.2V/6V/8.4/9.0V. The voltage options of the newer version may be better for voltages used with helicopters, 5.2V/6V/7.4V/8.2V.
The WR Hercules Super BEC seems more robust than the BEC Pro. The WR is rated for up to 14S, where the BEC Pro has had reported issues when on 12S.
However, I had issues with the Spektrum telemetry signal when using the WR. This may be due to the fact that the WR does not use a ferrite ring, but many will point out that a ferrite ring is not needed when running 2.4 GHz signals. Still, the WR output wires are too stiff to easily add a ferrite ring.
I was also concerned that the WR was only rated to 10A cont/15A max, and the BEC Pro is rated to 20A peak. On 6S, the BEC pro is rated to 13A max continuous.
Another good reason to keep switching power regulators (BEC / ESC) away from your radio receivers / equipment.
Rich
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Does that mean that "switching" power supplies may cause these glitches when in close proximity, but "linear" power supplies do not? Still don't understand the difference between "linear" vs "switching" other than switching is more expensive.
Also, would a ferrite ring on the WR BEC improve these glitches?
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I was going to mount my CC BEC Pro in the front under the ESC using the servo extensions. So is this a bad idea then?
Seriously? Math and Ohms Law proves there is almost no difference seen at the plug ends. Electrically, there is no reason that the BEC can't be mounted on the front. The designer of the E5 has his on the front! Reinvent the wheel if you must but, mine rolls fine.
See post number 10: http://synergyrchelicopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1236.0 (http://synergyrchelicopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1236.0)
Rich
Support at WR stated that the Super Hercules will put out 10 amps... if there is a "mechanical joint" aka servo extension it could put out less than 10 amps which would be bad for the receiver (not sure why though). I'd love to have it up front but the wires won't reach with this BEC without extending the output wires. Not sure what to do... he did say that they are coming out with a new BEC that will have longer wires.. does not help me though.
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He did not say the BEC could not be mounted in the front it just won't reach the back. I specifically asked him if mounted in the back could it interfere with receiver and he said they run at different frequencies... none of this makes sense to me... should have studied this in school :)
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I did study it in school, for four years. If you don't feel comfortable with it in the front then put it on the back but, understand that the Castle has to overcome the same mechanical connection as the Western Robotics. If the person you spoke too told you didn't have to worry about radio interference because the BEC and Radio are on different frequencies then he doesn't understand much about electronics as they relate to radio frequencies. I'm not saying that the WR will cause interference but, the possibility exists that it could the same as any other BEC. Let me put this another way, if you were using the Castle BEC Pro would you put the extension on it and run it to the front? If the answer is yes then you should run the WR the same way. The Western Robotics electrons are subject to the same physics as the Castle Creations. If you don't want a mechanical connection cut the ends off the extension and the BEC soldier them together. This stuff isn't magic!
Rich
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Yeah, my real confusion was with the connection not necessarily with the interference. It appears interference can come from a variety of things and if it were placed in back I'm sure I could keep it far enough away from the receiver. Trust me I would love to use the servo extensions instead of having to solder more.
So just to clarify, have you used servo extensions on BEC with success?
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Yeah, my real confusion was with the connection not necessarily with the interference. It appears interference can come from a variety of things and if it were placed in back I'm sure I could keep it far enough away from the receiver. Trust me I would love to use the servo extensions instead of having to solder more.
So just to clarify, have you used servo extensions on BEC with success?
Yes. Use a heavy duty extension and only as long as required. If your BEC has dual outputs you should run them both to the receiver / FBL unit this will give the current dual paths. If you want to work this out for yourself get a HD extension measure the resistance of the extension with a ohm (multi) meter. Then use this formula (R x I = V) to figure out what the voltage drop will be across the extension. R = resistance that you measured with the ohm meter, I is the maximum current that can be output from your BEC, The V will be the voltage drop across the extension. If you are really worried about it just replace it with the Castle, the connections are long enough to reach without modification. What I really want to know is where are all those guys are that talked you into the WR. Don't see them here helping you out now that you have questions. ;D Seriously, I'm happy that you are questioning things that you don't understand, that is how we learn after all.
Rich
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Thanks a lot Rich! I wish I would have known the wires are mini on the WR super H... It does help to hear you have had success with the servos extensions. After reading in the manual and then calling support to hear not to do it it will freak the common newb out (me).
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Thanks a lot Rich! I wish I would have known the wires are mini on the WR super H... It does help to hear you have had success with the servos extensions. After reading in the manual and then calling support to hear not to do it it will freak the common newb out (me).
As I said if you are uncomfortable with it just spend the $38 to change to the CC or put the NR closer to the rear. It won't help your flying at all for you to constantly worry about your BEC failing. 38 bucks is a cheap lesson in the grand scheme of things. This is the reason I tell people to stick with the tried and tested products. I'm sure the WB is a fine BEC (has good reviews) but, it seems that you are the first to try it on a E5 and therefor get to find the problems. While this problem isn't a big one it's still a PITA.
Rich
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I believe he may have purchased the WR Hercules Super BEC due to earlier reviews where the WR BEC compared much more favorably to the BEC Pro on reliability. A particular top pilot was quoted saying that he does not recommend BEC's other than the WR Hercules Super BEC. However, it is my understanding that reliability is no longer an issue since the v2 version of the BEC Pro. I'm on my 4th BEC Pro. I have not had a BEC Pro malfunction so far.
Still, there are 3 main issues with the BEC Pro:
(1) Even though the BEC Pro outputs correct voltage for the standard 0.5 increment voltages (5.0v, 5.5v, 6.0v, 6.5v, 7.0v, 7.5v, etc.), it outputs much lower voltage when one enters non-standard voltages. For instance, 6.9v will deliver 6.08v, and 5.9v will deliver 5.10v. Refer to this thread for more detailed info http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=345971 (http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=345971). I recommend using a voltmeter to verify the output voltage.
(2) Running of 12S issue. Castle states that the BEC Pro is safe to run on 12S. However, it is my understanding that Castle pilots run the BEC Pro on 6S. There is a current delivery advantage when running on 6S over 12S. At 24v, the BEC Pro delivers approximately up to 13A continuous. At 48v, max continuous current delivery drops to 8V. There is also a question of anecdotal reports of potential malfunction when running the BEC Pro on 12S.
(3) Fragility of input wires. I have seen pictures of input wires fracturing off the BEC Pro. The point of failure is consistently at the solder joint. My guess is that these folks are stressing the wires by pulling on the wires when connecting/disconnecting batteries. This should hopefully not be an issue if one does not stress the wires when making connections/disconnections.
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NKY,
I have a WB and I have 6inch extension's on both leads and I have over 200 fights with not one issue with my E7. Keep in mind that when electronics are being tested the product that you receive will be the bare min standards of the product you are using.. Example the Align servos are only rated at 6V but I ran the 610's on a straight lipo 7.4 with over 200 flights on a Beast X FBL and never once let me down.. Extend your leads and enjoy flying your bird and have fun..
Rock
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NKY,
I have a WB and I have 6inch extension's on both leads and I have over 200 fights with not one issue with my E7. Keep in mind that when electronics are being tested the product that you receive will be the bare min standards of the product you are using.. Example the Align servos are only rated at 6V but I ran the 610's on a straight lipo 7.4 with over 200 flights on a Beast X FBL and never once let me down.. Extend your leads and enjoy flying your bird and have fun..
Rock
Thank you so much for your time and write ups (both of you guys). As anal as I am I ended up getting the CC BEC pro today. I'll save the WR for my next build. More importantly its nice to know you can have success with the extensions. Thanks and I hope this helps future newbs :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It's too bad since the WR BEC is $100. As much as it pained me, I sold my WR BEC for $55 on HF with full disclosure.
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I believe he may have purchased the WR Hercules Super BEC due to earlier reviews where the WR BEC compared much more favorably to the BEC Pro on reliability. A particular top pilot was quoted saying that he does not recommend BEC's other than the WR Hercules Super BEC. However, it is my understanding that reliability is no longer an issue since the v2 version of the BEC Pro. I'm on my 4th BEC Pro. I have not had a BEC Pro malfunction so far.
Still, there are 3 main issues with the BEC Pro:
(1) Even though the BEC Pro outputs correct voltage for the standard 0.5 increment voltages (5.0v, 5.5v, 6.0v, 6.5v, 7.0v, 7.5v, etc.), it outputs much lower voltage when one enters non-standard voltages. For instance, 6.9v will deliver 6.08v, and 5.9v will deliver 5.10v. Refer to this thread for more detailed info http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=345971 (http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=345971). I recommend using a voltmeter to verify the output voltage.
(2) Running of 12S issue. Castle states that the BEC Pro is safe to run on 12S. However, it is my understanding that Castle pilots run the BEC Pro on 6S. There is a current delivery advantage when running on 6S over 12S. At 24v, the BEC Pro delivers approximately up to 13A continuous. At 48v, max continuous current delivery drops to 8V. There is also a question of anecdotal reports of potential malfunction when running the BEC Pro on 12S.
(3) Fragility of input wires. I have seen pictures of input wires fracturing off the BEC Pro. The point of failure is consistently at the solder joint. My guess is that these folks are stressing the wires by pulling on the wires when connecting/disconnecting batteries. This should hopefully not be an issue if one does not stress the wires when making connections/disconnections.
First a top pro recommending his sponsors products is nothing new. Further you can find a opinion to support or shred any product available, on the internet. I can show you reviews that say the V-Bar is a POS. Is this true? Not if you go look at the pole results in this form that shows 52% of the people participating in the pole are using it.
Voltage and current have an inverse relationship. As voltage increases current decreases so the opposite must also be true. I run my CC BEC Pro at 6.9 V it's output is 6.9V and has been since it was installed. Using a multimeter to check the voltage output of any regulator is always a good idea.
Any soldier joint will fail if stressed enough, especially surface joints. Let me put that statement in prospective. If a wire were positioned flat on a piece of metal and soldiered and another wire was attached to the same piece of metal but this time a hole was drilled through the metal, the wire was then threaded through the hole and around the metal which joint is stronger? The second of course. The first rule of soldiering, make a strong physical connection if possible. The Deans connector is one of most popular battery connectors on the market yet it has weakest soldier connection and exposed blades on the charging leads. Who can explain this? Marketing and pro recommendations maybe?
Just to be clear, I'm not sponsored by anyone and therefor have no agenda. I have never used a WR BEC so I don't have an opinion about it. I have used the CC BEC Pro and have had zero problems. I was only attempting to help a fellow helicopter pilot overcome his own objections with logic and science. If I had purchased the WR BEC and the leads were too short I would not have had a second thought about extending them but, I understand the science governing electricity the person that started this post did not. When asked WR said not to extend the leads and failed to help their customer understand their reasons for saying so. I'm guessing it was a canned answer, you can extend the the leads 6 to 8 inched without a problem; 18 to 24 inches big problem . The result is that their customer decided to go with another product that that better meets his needs without modification. Not because it wouldn't work but, because he didn't feel comfortable modifying or flying the product.
Rich
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Alcon,
I run a WR on my E7 and a CC Bec on my E6 at a 12S setup and both machines have been flawless.. So many people in the hobby get so wrapped up around the axle about the minor things.. Enjoy the hobby and have fun at it.. Remember your heli will let you know if the setup is not correct. Listen to your machine.. It will never let you down... ;D
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When it comes to brown outs its not minor IMHO... maybe on a micro but not a $1900-$2200 high performance machine that can cause destruction. It would be nice if the manufacturers would spec out how long the output wires are, after all everything else is spelled out why not add another line. If WR is saying don't add to output wires then tell us how much we would have to work with. On the flip side WR said you could lengthen the inputs with no problem but you would be mounting on the exterior or rear of Heli. I learned a lot through this discussion. Thanks again
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I agree, it would also be nice if there were industry standards and true standardized bench mark testing instead of the system or lack there of that currently exists. A good example of this is the LIPO battery market and "C" ratings. Our hobby has came a long way in the last twenty years but, we still have plenty of room for improvement. Each of us has a vote, every time you spend your hard earned cash you are voting. If we as a community vote for quality products, excellent service and insist on knowledgeable support we be will be rewarded with longer lasting, better performing, high quality products. Simple economics will take care of those products, vendors and companies that don't meet the standard but, we as a community have to do our part and stop supporting those businesses / vendors that copy or clone products as we are only hurting our hobby. Copying and cloning kills innovation, drives up prices and reduces quality. There are plenty of examples of cloning and copying in our hobby; radios, ESCs, BECs, entire helicopters, connectors, motors. Not everyone realizes this but, if you happen to be the first person to send a canopy to one of the aftermarket canopy company's for that new "hot" paint job you are contributing to copying and cloning because the first thing they do is make a mold of your canopy. A week later they are producing canopies for the E5. If you a buy a canopy from one of these companies it's the same story. They didn't design it, they copied it. Intentional or unintentional the end result is the same, someone else did the work they take the profits.
Twenty years ago manufactures could get away with selling products that didn't perform as advertised or that were of poor quality because word spread slowly but, today we have a forum and we can tell the whole world when we are unhappy, this is both good and bad. On the up side consumers are better informed (those who care to research anyway) and a manufacturer is less likely to get away with selling products that don't preform as advertised. Vendors who constantly fail to meet service expectations and or obligations are not likely to be in business long. The down side is that when a person uses a product for a purpose for which it is ill suited because of ignorance, lack of experience or because the correct solution is priced out of reach and then posts a negative review when the product doesn't meet his or her expectations. We have all seen negative post or comments and were immediately aware that the author had no idea what he or she was talking about. The phenomenon that is truly frustrating to me is when others propagate this misinformation as the truth with no first hand knowledge of the facts and or the product. Even worse are the people with agendas, who for their own personal gain, propagate lies and misinformation intentionally. Along with the ability to tell the world when a problem exists with a product or service comes the responsibility to examine the facts or understand the circumstances of a event or problem. In the past few weeks the Synergy community nearly lost a well respected, much valued vendor and industry innovator due the the postings and comments of a few people outside this forum. Before posting a negative comment lets all make sure we understand the truth and use some basic problem solving skills. We can improve this hobby for ourselves and future generations by casting our votes for quality products and supporting those who support us. Our combined effect is greater than the sum of our individual efforts, we are Synergy!
Rich
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So would you extend the input wires or the output wires based on experience? I know WR says not to extend the pup puts but what is the difference for people that do not know?
Thanks
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If I had reason to extend the input wires I would do so without hesitation but, in this case doing so wouldn't meet the objective of locating the BEC on the front of the machine (if that is your intention). As I said I wouldn't have a problem extending the output wires because I understand the the physics that govern voltage and current. The primary difference between extending the input wires vs the output wire is the wire gauge and the servo extension connectors. The input wires on the BEC being of a larger wire gauge have less resistance per inch than the much smaller servo output wires. The second consideration is the servo extension its self, the connectors on either end of the extension add a small amount of resistance but, if someone purchased a cheap servo extension with poorly constructed connectors the resistance could be higher. I always use a ohm meter to check any servo extensions before use, it takes less than a minute to measure the resistance of all three conductors on a servo lead. I have never found a bad servo extension but, I only use JR Gold heavy duty extensions. Recently I have began to make my own extension so that I can make them the exact length I need. As previously discussed increased resistance equals lower voltage, as voltage decreases current increases. The good news is that you don't have to guess, measure the resistance of the cable multiply the resistance times the current expected through the cable and you will know exactly how much voltage will be lost. When using a short servo extension the voltage drop is very small. You should do what makes you most comfortable. As I said before if you are worried about reliability you aren't going to enjoy flying as much. As Rock said just put it together and fly, listen to your machine it will tell you if something is wrong. Ignore my ramblings, I was only trying to get folks to understand that science should be involved in the decision making process not the opinions of someone who may or may not understand the governing principals of electricity. If nothing else I hope you gained some understanding of how current and voltage are affected by resistance. A educated understanding of a problem usually results in a better solution.
Rich