Synergy Tech Support
Synergy Electric Helicopters => Synergy E7SE => Topic started by: eobie on July 03, 2014, 10:55:31 AM
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I've made some posts recently regarding bent feathering shafts and feel that I owe an explanation as to what was going on. Not sure if anyone will really gain anything from this, because according to Matt, I am the only person to bend them in flight. :) I'm actually kinda proud of that!
So I was fighting some bobbles on the head. It took a while but I finally checked the feathering shaft and it was bent. I bent a couple of these but at the time always had a minor incident in which I attributed this to. Well I finally had another bend and this time it only had three flights on it... dampers only had three flights too.
Working with Matt, we realized that the standard damping was not sufficient for my flying style. The shims against the damper would cut into the damper and then slice the dampers up and down. This would then allow the shim to bottom out on the head which would then bend the shaft. Marks on the inside of the head tipped Matt off to what was going on.
It turns out Matt was 100% correct. I have since moved over to the trueblood dampers and added another .5mm of shimming to each side. In total my setup is now trueblood dampers, 1.5mm of shims on the damper side, and .5mm of shim between the radial and outer thrust bearing race.
The helicopter is very responsive now due to all the preloading so I took out ALL paddle sim on the vbar to slow it down around center. It flies awesome now. I beat the poo out of it and no more bent shafts.
Just want to say thank you to Matt for exchanging some 30+ emails to iron this all out and I also hope that this will help someone out there if you should ever have the same issue.
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that's crazy man! I wish I could bend a head axle in flight! haha must be some hard 3D your throwing down there bud!
glad you got it sorted out, i can see how this would be a hard one to figure out...
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I'd love to see a vid of you flying. I have over 1400 combined flights on my E5, E6, E7 and N7 and never bend a feathering shaft, not even during crashes...
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Hey guys. I'm not a smack pilot. I told Matt that. I fly 3d but not crazy smack stuff. I do fly hard though. I know exactly what maneuver was doing it. I like to do these crazy big fast inverted powerloops and do a massive punch out at the bottom. Its violent. I have several align reps in our club and when I was testing the new setup they were all yelling if I was trying to break the machine.... I was trying to break it, and I'm glad to say that after the new setup it held up like a champ...
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I'd love to see a vid of you flying. I have over 1400 combined flights on my E5, E6, E7 and N7 and never bend a feathering shaft, not even during crashes...
funny you mention the crash thing. I put my e5 in due to electrical failure this weekend, tail first I might add. and the gears in the tail box, and the feathering shaft were perfect! lol I felt sure the feathering shaft would be toast, but no.....
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I'm still working through this.... previous method did not end up working.
As for a video.. this is one I sent Matt. I was just doing a bunch off hard maneuvers then doing tic tocs to test for the bent shaft. It's the first place I notice it..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09kVkFt6igg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09kVkFt6igg)
and this is what the dampers looked like after the one flight.
https://plus.google.com/100786521036319734933/posts/2wcMXELAB4q (https://plus.google.com/100786521036319734933/posts/2wcMXELAB4q)
AND
here goes the truebloods..
https://plus.google.com/100786521036319734933/posts/iHLwz4JHu3f (https://plus.google.com/100786521036319734933/posts/iHLwz4JHu3f)
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And your sure your head is assembled properly? All the shims and bearings seated properly? I have just never seen anything like that. Even with guys beating the total crap out of them.
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Yes and yes. I've swapped heads with my n7 and still did. I've disassembled it enough times.......
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What is your collective range and do you have pitch pump enabled? If so, what value? Also, can you post a picture of the bent axle? I'm curious where the actual bend is located.
Thanks!
Rob
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No pitch pump. No paddle Sim. +-13 on pitch.
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Thanks! How about agility setting and cyclic throw slider value to achieve 8 degrees, and is it measuring 8? Also, long balls on outside of swash, short balls on inside, correct? Information gathering. :)
Also, can you post a picture of the bent axle? I'm curious where the actual bend is located.
Rob!
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Agility is at 110 or so. Style is in the 50's. FBL turnbuckle kit.. Short balls inside. Long outside. Don't know what the cyclic number us as I'm not neat the Heli. It is smack middle of the acceptable range to get 8 degrees.
Picture of the spindle won't help you.. You won't see the bend. It bends at the shim next to the damper. You can see the mark the shim makes on the inside of the head. See the attached picture.
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cool, thanks! Is there an equal and opposing mark on the other side of the head, on the top edge? I ask because there's a difference between the axle bending from the hit, or the axle bending first and then forcing the shim to hit after the damage because everything is now funky, bent and wobbling a lot.
Are both trueblood dampeners cut up equally or, is one cut up less than the other similar to the black ones? Again here, if the axle is first bent then the shim is more likely to cut the dampener on the bent side after the axle bends while flying it around knowing, or not knowing, it's bent.
Rob!
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No doubt your dampeners are compressed judging by the cuts, to the point the dampener ends up consuming the shim, kinda like when you put your head on your pillow. I assume your running 716's on your machine? Watching your video it's clear in theory why it's doing what it's doing, the real issue is figuring out if it's a setup issue or not to bash by any means, a build issue. Like Rob is asking very valid questions. For me I feel as if the dampeners are being compressed to much and infact allowing the spindle to bend, I have never seen this happen with one of the synergy machines and frankly with any other vendor. Picture a (seesaw), with the dampeners installed in theory normal, you don't have the ability to rock that spindle back and forth per say . But if you compress the dampeners even more. You have swelled them to the point, they are tight as he'll, results being the blade grips have no relief when you introduce the loads you are introducing to them. With that being said, going back to the seesaw theory, like Rob asked where are the bends and where are the "marks in the head block" in relation to those bends, my guess is they are bent to the left and right of center "probably a few MM's from the threaded end. The shim has in fact become the Fulcrum (keeping the Seesaw image in your head). Again this is speculation only, weather it's plausible or not that's up for discussion pending more information, including the questions Rob has asked..
BR,
K
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I would venture to say Rob the Black ones are most likely worse off than TB's? TB's tend to be firmer.. Interesting post and look forward to the rest of this thread as it goes on. ***** any possibility that you can take a side view picture of the spindle on a known "Flat Surface" this will also help in diagnosing this issue...
K
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All valid questions. I'm running 696's. Will address the rest when I get home. Kevin is correct in what's going on. Issue is figuring out what combo of dampers and shims will fix this.
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What has happened in General, is you have taken a Semi Rigid Head, and in stacking the shims compressed the dampeners allow the shims to recess in the head block and in turn made it a (Rigid Head) you have taken the functionality of the head out. There needs to be some flexibility in the Spindle and have the opportunity to move based on loads imposed on the blades.. Does this make sense.? From my end it can totally happen. Bottom line with your flying style and the above mentioned example, you will continue to bend shafts until you Balance out the Dampening set up on your head. Now I suggest you look into the Dampening System FBL Rotors has. This gives you the ability to "Tune" your head to your flying style. However keep in mind you may also need to dial back a little on your flying style ;). I would seriously look into that system that Ralph has to offer... Keep us posted, I still would like to see a side picture of the spindle (on a flat surface) to give us an idea where the bend or bends are taking place.
K
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Just so you know I've done this with stock shims and also with additional. The head is still doing its job, as evidenced by the divot in the head, the shaft is see sawing.
I need to get the damper shim from compressing into the head. Will update with more pictures later.
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Trust me , I know the head is doing its job.. The compression of the dampener accompanied with your flying style, isn't allowing the (Head assembly) to work as designed. And the spindle is supposed to move some ("Semi" Rigid Head) and I think Rob Cherry Cola is on to something regarding set-up as well, he needs just as much information on the (Set-up side of the house) as well as what I'm looking for on the mechanical side.. we jus Gotta find that Balance between the two, and we will... ;)
BR,
K
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I gotcha. I will get you some pics soon. Gotta see what the wife is doing before I disappear in the basement, lol.
As far as changing my flying style, I don't think that is a solution that any manufacturer would advocate. If a solution is found it could be implemented in the future to further bulletproof the line.
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Unfortunately, with the likes of Matt Botos (Owner/Designer) our own Rob Cherry whom can flat out maul (put to the test)a helicopter, Kyle Dahl and Nick Maxwell, Marcus Kim just to name a few who have absolutely beat the Synergy E7se, N7 and not ever do what you have done, I personally don't think that it's a product issue. I have never heard of this happening with a synergy much less the other Manufactors as stated earlier. I think it's a combination of Flying Style and Setup. How ever we are still awaiting all the facts in order to effectively and most importantly accurately diagnose the cause of the issues your having. and please forgive me if I sound like I'm dismissing the Synergy product, I'm not by any stretch implying that. I just have to go with the overall number of times this has happened, a this is the first of such out of thousands of synergy sold and are in service. We are all here to help figure this out. ;)
K
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I'm not sure how I could setup this Heli wrong.. My N7 does not do this, however I can take my N7 head and throw it on my E7 and replicate the issue. This shows me that the forces being applied to the head in the heavier, more powerful E7 is too much for the head to handle in its stock setup.
I have spent probably $150 in spindles and dampers trying to resolve this.
I'm working with Ralph trying different things out. As far as more facts, what else do you need to know? I have 30+ emails between Matt an I. We know what is happening... We are just all trying to figure out how to fix it.
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Ed,
I am still not certain what is wrong with your setup that could be causing the bending. I've seen more aggressive flying and never any axle bending. The head axle has been in production since 2006 without a single incident of bending. I will continue to try to do my best to help.
Edit - remove video... sorry didnt read above
Thanks,
Matt
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I posted that video a page back or so... It's the power loops Matt. Dunno what else to say.. If what Ralph and I are talking about doesn't work then I'm lost...
Never had this issue with a heli before. Had other issues of course, just nothing like this where the fix wasnt so obvious. Very, very, very frustrated. Ehh.
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KDE 700xf 535 G3
Kontronik 200hv
Kontronik gov, p gain @ 8, auto timing.
Same issue when I had the scorpion 4530-540 in there.
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I gotta say it's even more frustrating from a manufacturers stand point as I have tens of thousands of customers since 2006 and never a single issue like this. This has to be an isolated incident based on how you are or are not configuring your helicopter. Sorry I don't have a better answer, maybe Piro Pete can pick your setup apart when you meet up with him.
Thanks,
Matt
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Just so you know why I've tried as far as damping...
Stock setup, stock dampers, 1mm shim at dampers, .5mm between thrust and radial....bent shaft, cut damper
Same as above but with 1.5mm at the damper, bent shaft cut damper.
Trueblood with stock damping, bent shaft cut damper.
The ONLY setup that hasn't bent a shaft was truebloods with 1.5mm at the damper...but the damping is so tight I get shakes at 2100.
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Looked in a different thread you had and saw that Alan mentioned the gov gain. Did you try that out, as well the other things listed like I and P gains maybe even motor timing? Also saw you are running the 4530 motor, but the esc set up would help everyone solve your issue. I'm merely asking these questions to help everyone help you, we want you to keep flying it a lot!
Check post right before matts.. I listed it all for you. It's not the kontronik gov.... That I can promise.
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I gotta say it's even more frustrating from a manufacturers stand point as I have tens of thousands of customers since 2006 and never a single issue like this. This has to be an isolated incident based on how you are or are not configuring your helicopter. Sorry I don't have a better answer, maybe Piro Pete can pick your setup apart when you meet up with him.
Thanks,
Matt
I hope he finds it. We were going to meet up the other day but just figured we will get together at helis over Delaware.
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You are compressing the dampers too much which is driving the shim into the head. The shim then bottoms out on the ID of the head block and potentially bends the spindle. This is the only theory that fits your symptoms.
Trueblood dampers by design, are not supposed to be compressed. Not sure why you would need to compress an already ultra stiff damper.
The stock dampers work for 99.9% of the pilots out there. If you fall into that small percentage of pilots that the stock dampers do not work for there are solutions such as Trueblood, FBL Rotors, or modifying the stock dampers. I offered a free and simple option using the stock dampers.... this modification compresses the damper on the outer diameter vs compressing using shims. Simply wrap the damper in 1 or 2 layers of packing tape and reinsert the damper. Try this with the stock 1mm shim and let us know.
Thanks,
Matt
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I agree with you 100% with what's happening.
The truebloods with stock shimming did the same as the stock dampers. Not until it had 1.5mm at the damper did they hold up. Truebloods own instructions said to run between 1-1.5mm of shimming at the damper.
Like I said before Matt, if the stock damper extended past the head and instead of a small od shim that is supplied a large od shim was used I don't even think we would be having the conversation. The small shim puts all the compression at center, instead of spreading the compression over the whole damper.
The way it sits now, at least on my three machines...2 n7's and the e7, the shim is almost sitting inside the head.
I tried the tape thing, I couldn't even get the damper in the head without the tape pushing right off.
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I also want to apologize. It is not my intention to bag the machine. I want it to work. I've been lusting for a brand that had both nitro and electric that shared many of the same parts....excluding align.
I have a grand worth of spares....I have an interest in making this work.
Maybe I should not have made this post at all...I was just hoping that someone has been though this and resolved it.
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"Over" Compressing the dampers via shims does two very bad things.
1. Puts unwanted tension on the radial bearings and thrust bearings which is why we hear your helicopter fluttering badly during flight. The fluttering is the blades coming out of track which with heavy loading can also cause issues like you are seeing.
2. Drives the shim into the head block.
Taping the dampers works. Here is how....
1. Clean the dampers with windex or something of that nature. Dry thoroughly.
2. Use scotch tape or packing tape that has a decent adhesive.
3. Carefully insert dampers.
Thanks,
Matt
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Matt beat me to it. The dampeners aren't designed in a way that you can compress them and expect more stiffness. They are already a hard rubber compound (durometer of around 90) and only distort as you compress them beyond the stock setting. Solid dampeners of stiff compounds don't behave like o-rings that compress/expand in addition to being distributed over a set of 3 or 4.
A little trick I've learned is that most if not all of the shims have a slightly rounded side and a flat side. Install them so the rounded edges are towards the dampeners.
Second, the truebloods are even more susceptible to damage and distortion when compressed because they aren't even rubber. If you are compressing truebloods enough to trim off material from a moving shim your radial bearings have to be extremely tight if not completely binding. After you've tightened the spindle bolts disconnect the pitch linkages- the grip should spin nice and free without any binding or drag.
Third. I've attached pictures from dampeners run hard in my 716-bladed machine. The truebloods (left) barely have an indentation, b/c they aren't designed to compress. They were pulled because they were too stiff at low RPMs. The stock ones (right) were pulled after about 30 hard flights. They show signs of compression, but just a little. And yes they show signs of wearing but not to the degree of yours. They've since received 2 layers of clear tape and reinserted. A video of the heli and how it's consistently flown is shown below. Collective is at +/- 15 , 2150 on the head, Vbar with pitch pump (40) and paddle sim (40).
The biggest thing to remember, we're here to help you figure this out because something isn't right. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ezcrI9BPOo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ezcrI9BPOo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOI8mhGyMAc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOI8mhGyMAc) (The fun beings at about 1:35) 8)
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This is where I am confused. I am destroying the dampers with stock damping. Are you telling me to add tape and use stock damping, or use tape with less than stock damping.
The fact that yours are not damaged with stock damping and no tape is disturbing to me since in my machine they are destroyed in one flight. Reading your post I'm getting that you didn't add tape until you had compression already.
I'll try whatever you recommend, just please clarify.
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You've brought your street car to the track and need to fine tune the tires to match driving style, stock settings are provided to suit a wide range of "drivers". While driving on the track expect to replace your rubber MUCH more often than driving on the street, yet you still need to be sure to run the correct tires and pressure regardless.
It would appear that your compression is more than specified, please verify with digital calipers that you have the correct shim inside the grip: 0.5mm, and only one 0.8mm shim next to the dampener. If there is axial play in the grips where they may slide a hair, try the 1.0mm shim. There should be 3 sizes: 0.5, 0.8, 1.0. Let's start there to make sure you don't have any over-compression then work in more by adding tape if you need to. Clear packing tape is the best, sticks like mad and has a glossy side that when greased slides great!
But... with your flying style you should also be able to use the truebloods, that's what they are designed for. You just need to verify they are not compressed at all, your main grips should rotate/spin freely, mine almost rotate under the weight of the grip arm when disconnected. The truebloods may need a 1.0 shim or 1.3 (0.5+0.8 ) because they are molded shorter than the stock rubber.
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Ok great. I can say that when I had the truebloods were in there they had a 1.0+.5 at the damper. There was NO binding in the radials and the grips were smooth. Problem was the damping was too tight. The dampers held up, however.
With just the 1.0mm shim installed at the damper the trueblood was getting mangled.
I will try your recommendation of a total of 1.3mm at the damper. Might be a few as I wont have much time over the next couple of weeks. Also going to try Ralph's system..
Thanks for all your help, Rob.
Ed
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Careful with the FBL system, they are only about as stiff as stock, but with LESS allowable movement of the axle because of the delrin inserts. That system is to fine tune the head for pilots who want something more custom matched to their flying style and may not fly hard 3D OR maybe they fly with less aggressive inputs as witnessed in your video. Matt's setup is designed for a broad range of pilots and allows maximum axle angle, Truebloods for hard 3D /high rpm, FBL to tune your dampening at stock or softer levels but has limited axle travel. Hope this helps!
I'm currently running the FBL setup in a few of my machines, tuning each setup to my flying style. I have yet to run into troubles but I see your flying has more aggressive/combined inputs.
The biggest thing to understand is that Hard 3D doesn't mean the machine is flown with less precision and overly aggressive inputs. I'm not bashing your flying, just trying to point out that any machine of any brand can and has been maimed in flight due to pilot inputs. Before I flew Synergy, I was crippling machines left and right, I thought the machines were at fault until I realized my "hard" flying was indeed hard but also not good.
A car may have two pedals, sometimes 3 and a shifter...but that doesn't mean it's ok to press or engage any combination of them at will, or randomly, or in any way the driver deems appropriate at the time. The more power and capabilities the car has, it requires even more refinement of inputs and respect. F1 cars are far from just mashing down the go pedal and buzzing around the track until you cross the finish.
Rob
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Lol. I know exactly what you mean. Never said I was technical, I just said I was hard on the machine.
I actually have ralphs system in hand and with three blues it is tight. Tighter than stock as far as I can tell. The delrin is thin and the damper extends past the head.
I think it will prove successful.
As far as my inputs go...since we've gone there. I can name a brand that ate it all up, didn't even blink at what I did to it...I never had a single problem with it.
The only reason I'm not flying it anymore is because I fell in love with the n7,and well its nice to share parts between machines.
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I will also day that flight was a purpose flight. It was meant to stress the machine to prove that it is possible to bend the shaft in flight after being told it was impossible.
Its not indicative of my flight routine. The fact is I like power loops, I like the noise.... I live for blade farts, lol. So I did a bunch of powerloops and then would test for the bent shaft by doing some tic tocs..
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I love the car analogies from Rob. The point is, my C6 can handle a lot of abuse, because it was designed to. But it still isn't indestructible and I could blow an engine.
I guess the question is are there any benefits to being overly aggressive. I enjoyed your video Ed as we all did but many of us fly the same moves and more, but it's about collective management. Hope I'm not offending, I'm saying this as positive as possible. I think Matt, Rob and Kevin got the answers to you that we're needed from a setup standpoint so I won't butt in anymore, but i don't think adjusting your technique is a negative. When I did drum competitions I had to change my technique even after getting my Master's in music and then my DMA. I'm very glad I did. Just saying there is nothing wrong with change, we should always want to evolve.
I apologize if I was out of line in anyone's eyes. But I see this as a safety thing so I thought it should be said.
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Its not out of line. There is a difference in lack of collective management and the intentional bashing I'm doing. Like I said... Its not my whole routine, its a maneuver that I like to do and if it can't handle just give me the word and I'll stop trying to fix this and go back to what I used to fly.. As far as safety, there is nothing that I am doing that would be considered unsafe.
I am beyond frustrated now and if the word is that this machine will never do what I want it to just say the word. I won't change what I enjoy to do to fall in line with what the machine can handle...
Let's use a car analogy... Let's say you like to go race but your tires keep breaking traction in the turns, do you get new tires or put up with the slower lap times.
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The machine can handle it without a problem. This has been proved over and over again. This is just a matter of misconfiguration.
Matt
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Thanks Matt, then I will continue to work on my setup.. This was not what I was getting from some of the replies.
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This hobby does take a high level of mechanical ability. Please take what has been recommended and apply it to your rotor head and you will have success.
A few facts in closing -
- Blade farts may sound cool to you... but are very bad for the helicopter.
- Anyone can fly a helicopter and try to destroy it.
- ANY helicopter can be destroyed in flight with a skilled pilot.
- True skill is making a helicopter look like its being punished when it really is not
Matt
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Not even sure how to respond here. A bunch of assumptions are being made.
Sorry but it appears I've offended you guys. Checking out.