Synergy Tech Support

Synergy Electric Helicopters => Synergy E7SE => Topic started by: cml001 on August 31, 2015, 09:37:39 PM

Title: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on August 31, 2015, 09:37:39 PM: Hi guys.. The remaining parts/equipment for my E7SE build should be here by Friday.. I thought Id get a little info from u guys to help me along. Here is my set up..
Synergy E7SE
Rail 696 mains & 116 tails
KDE 700XF 505KV G3 w the stock 12T pinion
Castle Creations Edge 160HV w Quick Connect
MKS HBL960HV cyclic & HBL990HV tail
iKON FBL w Bluetooth Module (iKON controls gov function)
Pulse 5000mah 45C flight pack & 3600mah RX pack
*i did stop the tail box short 4mm of full seat as suggested for use of 716 mains in case I wanted to try that blade size later*

I am still debating using a Spektrum TM1000 telemetry unit.. I've got one on my N5C and its pretty handy to be honest... I thought it would be trivial at first... But I rely on it more than I expected to.. But this build being electric I'm not sure how valuable it'll be.. So I'm up in the air on that one.. Maybe.

So let me begin my ?'s... First off the motor & ESC... For those of u using KDE motors.. What is the best/preferred settings in the castle software for motor timing & PWM rates? I know certain brand motors like particular settings.

Second ?... Head speeds.. I use iKONs gov function & not Castles.. I do not use a normal mode.. Idle 1, 2, & 3 will each have a governed speed with full cyclic & collective ranges.. This is how I have all my birds set up & will continue the same with this build. So what head speeds are u guys using? I typically like my idle 1 kinda low.. idle 2 peppy enough that I can bang around pretty good(usually stay in my idle 2), & idle 3 I usually like it as high as I can go without eating up my overhead.. I'm try'n my best to progress in 3D, so I'd say that's my style.. I think I'm more ruff and aggressive on the sticks at times, but would like to be a bit more smooth and fluid than smack.. Hard to explain.. And my mood changes with the wind so to speak. I usually leave 10-15% overhead. But this is my first 700... I don't know what the "normal" head speeds are.. I was think'n my idle 3 should be around 2050-2150.. According to Mr Mel's calculator.. That's about all I'll be able to get.. Should I opt for the 13T pinion? What head speeds are u guys running?

Third, pitch range... On my little 450 I run 12 degrees +\-. Any higher & I end up bogging & blow'n the tail. On my 550PRO DFC & N5C I use 13 degrees +\-.... Seems perfect on those two birds... The N5C has taught me a lot about collective management.. Still have a lot to learn tho on that subject.. Anyhow.. Are there any "no no's" to the E7SE as far as pitch goes?

I suppose that's all the ?s I have for now.. I'm sure I'll have more later as I begin to do the programming & set up... Hopefully this weekend.. I'd like to give the maiden early next week if all goes as planned. Thanks in advance for ur input & advise!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: curmudgeon on August 31, 2015, 09:48:21 PM: You have good quality electronics.

(1) I would get the 13T (Hard Coat) pinion for those headspeeds. That's what I have. I spin 716/106 blades at 2,000rpm HS with the VBar governor.

(2) I run all KDE motors with the Castle PWM at 12 and Timing set to normal. I tried Low timing(0), but it did not work out as well as normal.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Mike Spano on September 01, 2015, 08:00:12 AM: I also run all KDE motors and I run them at PWM 12, and Timing Normal. I do play with timing a little on a new build to see how she responds though.

Headspeeds, I like mine sort of how you do. using the 13T pinion, I run the following HS with the exact same motor you are running.
N - 1700
IU1 - 2050 (minimum overhead warning)
IU2 - 2150 (max HS warning)

I was told by the castle guys, that the castle gov performs its best when the % in the castle software is from 95-105% in hover. I can attest that the heli does seem to be much happier there than anywhere else. if it were me, I would run the castle gov over the IKON gov, if not only for the simplicity factor. the new castle gov is very very nice.

I run a lot of pitch on all of my helis, it helps me stop very crisply. the trick is, staying out of it when your flying and doing maneuvers. on my E7SE, I run around 13.5-14 +/-, the same I run on my N7's, N5C, and E5. Normal pitch for a person new to a 700 electric, I would recommend 11-12.5 +/-, until you get used to the power. with that motor, that heli is going to be insanely powerful. mine actually gives me a rush when flying it. that motor is easier on packs than other motors I have tried also.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 01, 2015, 09:11:55 PM: Well if I keep the 12T pinion I'll be using 104.6% to keep a gov'd HS of 2100... I've never flown a 700 before so I can't say that that would be my preferred HS or not.. Most likely not tho.. Unless I'm in "the zone" ... And for me that still isn't doin a whole lot of tricks.. Just means that my thumbs are move'n faster.. Lol.. May just keep the 12T for the break-in/tuning period and see how it goes.. Decisions decisions..
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Rodney Kirstine on September 01, 2015, 09:16:43 PM: I ran my E7SE at 1950 RPM, mostly, and really liked it at that head speed.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: curmudgeon on September 01, 2015, 09:23:11 PM: My collective management is not very refined. I still need raw power to get me out of trouble. 716/106 blades spinning at 2,000rpm (13T pinion, VBar governor) do the trick for me. Once my skills improve, I'll try lower RPM's.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Rodney Kirstine on September 01, 2015, 10:38:16 PM: Quote from: curmudgeon on September 01, 2015, 09:23:11 PM
My collective management is not very refined. I still need raw power to get me out of trouble. 716/106 blades spinning at 2,000rpm (13T pinion, VBar governor) do the trick for me. Once my skills improve, I'll try lower RPM's.

The N5C improved my collective management skills immensely! I had no idea how ham fisted I was being with the collective until I started flying nitro.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 02, 2015, 02:05:16 AM: Agreed..
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: curmudgeon on September 02, 2015, 09:31:48 AM: Unfortunately, nitro is not a viable option for me. My local flying field is electric only (noise complaints by the nearby neighborhood to the county), and neither nitro nor gas is allowed at the local parks in my county.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Rodney Kirstine on September 02, 2015, 10:21:52 AM: That's a bummer.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 05, 2015, 02:20:27 PM: Ok.. Got the last of my servos in last night... All that's needed it figure the routing of wires & loom them.. Got back & thread lock all the frame hardware (sub assemblies have already been done) and begin programming... Bad new is that the weather is calling for rain throughout the week.. So not sure when I'll be able to maiden and begin tuning.. But the bird should be complete by Monday(at work now & work tomorrow.. 12hr shifts suck!). Excited!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 05, 2015, 08:31:56 PM: I'm try'n to mount the CF servo arms on the servo wheel (Futaba part# FUTM2020)... If I do per the manual and mount the CF horn on the backside of the wheel.. Bolts thru from the back.. The head of the bolts rest on the top of the servo case... Can I mount the CF on the outside of the wheel? Suggestions?
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 05, 2015, 09:04:04 PM: Shim between the top of the servo splin & the inside of the wheels splin?
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: curmudgeon on September 06, 2015, 06:46:13 AM: The MKS servo dimensions are a bit different than Futaba servos. The MKS servos are substantially deeper than the Futaba servos, so that's why you need servo shims to prevent the right and left MKS servos from contacting each other at the butt. A 1mm worth of shims should suffice.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11166&pictureid=89812)

As far as dealing with the issue of the servo wheel cap head screws contacting the MKS servo case (different design than Futaba servos), the solution is very easy. Replace the stock M2x6mm cap head screws with M2x6 button head screws (http://www.amain.com/rc-cars/protek-rc-2x6mm-high-strength-button-head-screws-10-ptk-h-3001/p141755). The button head is much shallower than the stock cap heads, and it will give you the clearance you need.

I went a step further and used slightly longer screws, so that I could use M2 nylock nuts (http://www.amain.com/rc-cars/vaterra-m2-nylock-locknut-10-vtr236012/p251535) as I prefer to use alternatives to Loctite as much as possible. The M2x8mm button head screws (http://www.amain.com/rc-cars/protek-rc-2x8mm-high-strength-button-head-screws-10-ptk-h-3002/p141756) would work very well with nylock nuts.
(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=10977&pictureid=89377)
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 06, 2015, 06:45:59 PM: Thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 06, 2015, 11:57:49 PM: Ok, now that I have the wheel & CF arm mated and on the servo.. I've got another issue... The ball that mounts to the CF horn is not long enough to pass thru the CF horn & thread the nut.... It starts the looses bite as it only gets a 1/4 turn.... the 3mm threads of the ball are just too short... This can't be right? May end up ordering the balls off the N5C with the 2mm threads & use a standard horn... Any suggestions guys? I'm all ears & eager to get this baby in the air! Thanks.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Ding0 on September 07, 2015, 01:11:43 AM: How about using a regular servo arm... what are the forces acting on the arm to begin with? enough to bend or break it?
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: curmudgeon on September 07, 2015, 07:18:56 AM: Yes. I don't know why the threaded part of the ball studs is so short. I used red Loctite. Several hundreds of flights later, and no issues. Bearing retainer green 648 should work well too. I would not feel comfortable using blue Loctite for this application.

(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11166&pictureid=91581)

(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11166&pictureid=91582)
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 07, 2015, 07:46:44 AM: I use red on all my ball links... Usually I use a metal horn... I know the CF are designed as a sacrificial part to save servo gears as well to set correct geometry.. I like them & want to use them... But the I'm not getting a "bite" on these threads well enough for me to feel comfortable with it. It's almost as tho it strips or is strip'd given I only get a portion of a turn into the nut. I have always felt that my builds are solid... I enjoy the modeling side of each build as much as fly'n the completed heli.. This does not feel solid. May order more balls & nuts just to see if I get better results... I don't know... Thanks for the help bruh!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Danny Dugger on September 07, 2015, 09:00:19 AM: The threaded section of the pivot ball measures 0.143" or about 3.63mm from flat to tip. If you're only getting 1/4 thread something is wrong, you should be able to get a few threads in there. Red loctite is definitely a must. The carbon part will live through a crash, the spline of the plastic Futaba wheel will strip and save your gears :) Make sure the pivot ball is going all the way through and sitting flat on the horn. The horn should be 2mm thick.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 07, 2015, 09:12:42 AM: Thanks Danny, that's the way I understood it work yes.. Not having any luck tho... I've placed an order for more ball studs & nuts... When I get home I'll pull out the calipers and get the measurements to confirm. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 10, 2015, 08:33:25 PM: The ball stud was striped... The threads in the others do not reach all the way thru the nut.. Curm's pic is about the same as mine... All fixed up tho... This build has brought another first for me tho... I locked a bearing on the torque tube w green loctite.. Lol.. Never had that happen before.. Lol.. New bearing will be here tomorrow so no biggie.. What do u guys use to secure the bearings? Any tricks that u guys use to keep glue or compound outta the bearings?
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Danny Dugger on September 10, 2015, 09:20:19 PM: Loctite 638 retaining compound. I apply a very small amount to the shaft where I want to stick the bearing using a piece of solder. I slowly work the bearing over the compound (not letting it pile up in front of the bearing high enough to reach the seal). Wobble the bearing around a little to let the compound spread between the mating surfaces and I like to let it cure overnight before installing into the boom.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Danny Dugger on September 10, 2015, 09:23:36 PM: Loctite 638 retaining compound. I apply a very small amount to the shaft in the location the bearing is to be set using a piece of solder. I slowly work the bearing over the compound (not letting the compound pile up in front of the bearing high enough to reach the seal). Wobble the bearing around a little to let the compound spread between the mating surfaces and soak up any excess with a q-tip. I like to let it cure overnight before installing into the boom.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Mike Spano on September 11, 2015, 02:51:18 PM: I actually use very thin CA myself. I put a paper thin coating around the TT in the location I want the bearing, then slide the bearing into it, and past the point I want it, then back to the point I want it, and that keeps it from coming over into the bearing itself. immediately take the TT and roll it on the table (the bearing is touching the table) back and forth to ensure that the bearing is seated properly. you only have one shot at getting it perfect, or its a PITA to get back off, so do it quick.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 11, 2015, 02:54:00 PM: Yeah that's how I do it using green 290.. Never had a problem before... Just goof'd it this time I guess. UPS delivery a shiny new... extremely bent torque tube today! Freak'n awesome! >:(
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Kevin Dalrymple on September 11, 2015, 05:22:56 PM: Looks like copper in the pic. That would make it worth more. Lol

Just a small drop of ca for nether slide the bearing on. You only need to hold the bearing in place as you slide the TT into the boom. And if you bend it in a crash you can pull the bearings right off the torque tube by hand.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Danny Dugger on September 11, 2015, 10:18:55 PM: Man, that sucks.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Jason Cummings on September 12, 2015, 07:09:57 AM: Been there. At UPS they sword fight with the packages.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Rodney Kirstine on September 12, 2015, 10:20:46 AM: Quote from: Jason Cummings on September 12, 2015, 07:09:57 AM
Been there. At UPS they sword fight with the packages.

Opening scene of Ace Ventura Pet Detective...
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 12, 2015, 11:18:07 AM: Yeah, best part of the movie! It's all I need to maiden this bird... May try to beat the stuck bearings off & try to use the old tt.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Danny Dugger on September 12, 2015, 10:24:40 PM: Use heat! They'll come off with the proper application of force & heat :) A pair of needle nose vise grips set so they just clear the tube and a few taps with a hammer works for me.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 15, 2015, 02:00:15 PM: Thanks Danny... I did try that as I have had to use good ole heat on other parts of helis in the past, it does work.. Thanks for input on that one guys! I will stick it in the Synergy drawer as a back up when needed. I got the replacement for it & have it dry'n now. Hopefully tomorrow will be the maiden flight. I'll take a couple photos and put them with the post of the maiden results.... That should do it for this thread. Thanks again for the help fellas!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 17, 2015, 09:36:08 PM: Maiden successful! Forgot the Bluetooth antenna to the laptop so I wasn't able to tweek iKon... Dummy! But the initial set up was pretty tight... Tail tuning of course.. Cyclic gain maybe.. I like the 696 blades so I'll save the 716s for later. But I got 6 flighya in & had to leave for soccer practice.... Have to resize the pics.. Won't load.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 17, 2015, 09:39:12 PM: Kool, there's an app for that. I got 2 canopys when I ordered, one I found that I liked & changed it from green to pink... The other I just photoshop'd the stock canopys hue scale to this... I dig it!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Rodney Kirstine on September 17, 2015, 11:44:21 PM: Congrats on the maiden!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Ding0 on September 18, 2015, 12:22:48 AM: Congrats on your maiden flight! I hope to be there in the next month!
How tall is the main frame? from where the landing strut connects to the top of the frame? I'm anxious to see if the mechs will fit in my Airwolf fuse!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 18, 2015, 04:43:40 AM: Thanks! I'm HAPPY! Couldn't report on if it'll fit a fuse or not. I have honestly not measured that. I will say it is slightly shorter than my N5C in height.. But I don't know if that's frame or shaft...
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: troasb on September 18, 2015, 06:24:13 AM: Quote from: curmudgeon on September 07, 2015, 07:18:56 AM
Yes. I don't know why the threaded part of the ball studs is so short. I used red Loctite. Several hundreds of flights later, and no issues. Bearing retainer green 648 should work well too. I would not feel comfortable using blue Loctite for this application.

(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11166&pictureid=91581)

(http://helifreak.com/picture.php?albumid=11166&pictureid=91582)

Same on my E5, N7 and E7se, just have to rely on red locktite. Have been working fine til now, but it is not acceptable in a high-end kit like All Synergy models
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 21, 2015, 07:23:38 AM: So I'm off work today & tomorrow.. I'll work Wend & Thurs before head'n out to the Extravaganza... Anyhow, haven't had a chance to tune.. Got a ton to do over the next two days.. But figured I'd head to the field this morning for a few flights... While hooking up packs to charge I was looking at the wall... It's a beautiful sight! Absolutely LOVE these birds!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 21, 2015, 03:31:16 PM: Well.... Either I botched the solder job, or .... I don't know.. This is a first for me... But I had a wire come out of the connector bullet. I was about 45 degrees inverted while doin tictocs about 7-8ft off the ground she shut down.. I rolled & auto'd her to safety.. Thankfully... But this is what I found. Gonna Check the esc log when I get home.. Maybe it'll shed some light on why.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Dan Roysdon on September 21, 2015, 03:33:58 PM: I had that happen before too and couldn't find why, I'd done it the same as I have the past 20yrs.
If you find anything please let us know.
What are the canopy mounts in the photo?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 21, 2015, 03:38:53 PM: N7 "U" Channel mounts... Against the frame I have a thin main blade washer, 3 tail blade washers, then the "U" channel post. Good mod for any heli I think.. Makes it easy IMO. Yeah, if I can figure out why the wire came free I'll share.. Prolly just botched the solder joint...
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Grimmy on September 21, 2015, 04:19:39 PM: Almost looks like a cold soldier joint to me.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Jason Cummings on September 21, 2015, 06:40:50 PM: Just out of curiosity was there melted solder anywhere?
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 21, 2015, 06:46:44 PM: No... Was my first thought too.. Getting too hot... Just got done soldering.. Finish this cig & gonna put the connector on & boot up the log to see how hot she got. I have the ESC set to insensitive.. But if it got that much amperage to melt something I would think my soft cut would have kicked in.. Likely a cold joint.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Jason Cummings on September 21, 2015, 07:03:39 PM: I had a similar experience and there was solder all over the place.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 21, 2015, 07:46:12 PM: Jury is in.. Cold joint... Had to have been.. Amps never top'd 143.... ESC temp never top'd 156... These #s came straight off the log. Must have been a cold joint... Hopefully I won't see another!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 21, 2015, 09:33:54 PM: Think this is another check mark in the RX category vs a BEC...
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: 10x on September 22, 2015, 04:10:53 PM: Hello All
Not sure if you have read this thread on the Freak..
http://helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=706196 (http://helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=706196)
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on September 22, 2015, 04:28:04 PM: Haven't read it before.. But I believe it... Takes a good bit to melt the factory solder.. Thanks for heads up! She's back in the air now!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: troasb on September 23, 2015, 06:01:17 AM: Quote from: cml001 on September 21, 2015, 09:33:54 PM
Think this is another check mark in the RX category vs a BEC...

For sure, running a separate rx-battery is safer than running only a bec. But if you run a bec, you should have a small back-up battery system like Optipower Ultra-Mega Guard, then you get the best from both worlds and saves weight and the hassle with a rx-batteries.
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Roger on October 26, 2015, 04:56:53 PM: Quote from: cml001 on September 21, 2015, 03:31:16 PM
Well.... Either I botched the solder job, or .... I don't know.. This is a first for me... But I had a wire come out of the connector bullet. I was about 45 degrees inverted while doin tictocs about 7-8ft off the ground she shut down.. I rolled & auto'd her to safety.. Thankfully... But this is what I found. Gonna Check the esc log when I get home.. Maybe it'll shed some light on why.

It was the mind numbing tick-tock that caused this malfunction for sure. :o :o
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: cml001 on October 26, 2015, 05:03:20 PM: Lol... Thanks for the boost in my confidence... My tic tocs are not mind numbing... Yet!
Title: Re: Clay's E7SE Build
Post by: Roger on October 26, 2015, 05:05:07 PM: ALL tick tocks are mind numbing. Doesn't matter who is doing them!!!! :o :o :o

ROG