Synergy Tech Support
Synergy Nitro Helicopters => Synergy N5 / N5c => Topic started by: jmdanna on July 24, 2016, 02:51:36 PM
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I just finished building my N5c yesterday and everything looked fine while putting it together but I am having problems spooling up with the Brain governor. The engine starts to rev up but the blades don't start spinning until the governor is about to engage, and since the rpm is too low, the governor does not engage.
I am wondering if the gap between the clutch and the liner was set incorrectly at the factory? Has this ever happened before in a new kit?
If this sounds like a defective clutch, would Synergy send me a new clutch assembly under warranty?
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When I was using ikon.. I had forgot to uncheck the box for electric models... Double check that.
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I have a stupid question and I'm sure you checked for this but. Is it possible that your engine started in reverse? I've had this happen to me a few times and has always made me think something was wrong.
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The electric box was left unchecked.
The engine did not start in reverse. I have had that happen with my Fury 55 but this was different. The blades would start spinning but not nearly fast enough.
I will switch the governor off and use a throttle curve and see if the blades spool up like normal or if the clutch looks bad. I will take a video so you all can see.
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So I went out to test it without governor enabled. These were the throttle curves I found online. Fairly low headspeed but enough to prove the point.
Normal: 11-28-45-60-75
Idle 1: 80-65-55-65-80
Idle 2: 85-70-55-70-80
Here is the video of the test. A very mild flight as I am not comfortable with the clutch or these throttle curves.
For reference I have made a table of contents of what I remember from the flight after replaying it.
0:00 - I start feathering the throttle.
0:29 - Clutch finally grabs, at about 50% throttle.
1:00 - I switch into Idle 1.
1:42 - I switch into Idle 2.
1:53 - Seemed to start overspeeding a little bit.
2:06 - Not comfortable with the increase in headspeed I switch back to Idle 1, and it goes back down.
2:45 - Huge increase in headspeed with no change in throttle input, so I give it ten seconds to come back down and it does not, so I auto down.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KVopy7n_Bc&feature=youtu.be#)
Not only am I fairly certain the clutch or liner is bad, but I am a little worried about the jump in headspeed at 2:45. Is that what happens when an engine goes lean? My high needle is at 1 3/4 plus 2 clicks, and mid needle at 1 7/8. I am running rich to start with, but that does not sound good to me.
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The rpm change at 2:45 could just be the engine is loading up from being rich and struggling to get to rpm.
It does seem like it's taking too long for the clutch to engage. I would take the stack off and inspect the parts.
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So would that mean the engine was running at a slower headspeed than normal (like drowning in fuel) until 2:45 where it finally caught back up? I am not particularly experienced with nitro engines and still learning as I go so I really appreciate the advice and feedback.
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Well, they look okay to me. I even used my calipers and measured inner and outer diameter. It's pretty close, i don't understand why the engine is behaving this way?
(http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq103/sweetness293/Synergy%20N5c/IMG_0668_zpssxuyn5ji.jpg)
Bell ID - 41.87mm
Clutch OD at the base of the shoe - 41.26mm
Clutch OD at the middle of the shoe - 41.16mm
So it seems like each shoe only has to expand about 0.3 - 0.35mm in order to contact the liner. Does that sound right?
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If possible can you check your clutch hub to make sure it's completely seated and tightened on the end of the crankshaft? The clutch h and clutch bell look fine to me from what I can tell in the pictures.
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When the engine was out of the heli I tried inserting the crank lock tool and rotating the fan hub. I didn't want to try to break it so I didn't wrench on it, but it did not rotate with a decent amount of force.
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Well from what I have read online, it seems this gap is too large. On to order another liner...
Which one should I get? I am hesitant to order another stock liner because it will probably be too thin again. Is the N7 liner thicker or should I go with a 700N liner or something else?
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I am wondering if the gap between the clutch and the liner was set incorrectly at the factory? Has this ever happened before in a new kit?
I can't recall anyone ever posting about having an issue with the stock liner in a brand new Synergy clutch bell. Of course, that doesn't mean there can't be a first time.
If this sounds like a defective clutch, would Synergy send me a new clutch assembly under warranty?
Matt always takes care of problems, for sure, on defective parts.
Which one should I get? I am hesitant to order another stock liner because it will probably be too thin again. Is the N7 liner thicker or should I go with a 700N liner or something else?
I've got over 1,000 flights between my N5C and N7, all on Synergy clutch liners and my flight count is quite a bit lower than a lot of the team guys. The N7 liner is the same material, BTW.
Are you sure there's not something else going on, like the one-way bearing slipping?
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The N7 liner is the same material, BTW.
Are you sure there's not something else going on, like the one-way bearing slipping?
So the N7 liner is no thicker than the N5c liner?
I just checked the OWB and cannot get it to slip by hand. I don't think it's that. I don't know what else it could be besides the clutch?
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The one way bearing hub can go on the main gear in any direction. Maybe the hub is upside down? If you hold the auto gear and try to rotate the main gear clockwise it should lock up. If you hold the auto gear and rotate the main gear counter clockwise the main gear should free wheel. If that's the case you'll just need to flip the main gear and hub upside down. Not questioning your building skill just trying help get this bird in the air :D.
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No worries, but yeah the OWB is in right. Using throttle curves I am able to get the bird in the air, but it takes an unusually long time for the blades to start spinning. The blades don't start spinning until mid stick, which is set at 50% throttle.
This makes my Brain governor have trouble spooling up, and it usually fails to do so.
I just tried wrapping my clutch in electrical tape. 1 layer was loose when putting the bell over it. 2 layers made it a snug fit, but I am still able to move/rotate the bell (so not crazy tight).
I also tried slightly leaner tune, and new fuel, to no avail.
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Would it be crazy to just ask for a new bell assembly with the liner installed? I am kind of sick of all this, and want to get my new bird up before I leave for IRCHA next week. Do I need to call Synergy customer service?
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Would it be crazy to just ask for a new bell assembly with the liner installed? I am kind of sick of all this, and want to get my new bird up before I leave for IRCHA next week. Do I need to call Synergy customer service?
Email Matt. Matt@mattbotos.com
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Hello Jacob,
I'm sure we can get through this with little to no trouble. Your video helps tremendously with troubleshooting this problem.
In the video, the model is not spooling past the low end due to a rich condition. Make sure your low end needle is set parallel with the carb. Your clutch is finally grabbing at 50% throttle because your air to fuel mixture is too rich. Increasing the throttle opens the barrel of the carb but doesn't really affect the RPM because there is too much fuel. Your assessment of drowning the motor in fuel is correct, the sudden RPM change is because the motor finally became hot enough to begin to handle the amount of fuel. This is also very apparent by the amount of smoke you are putting out in the video.
The mid range needle should be set around 1/2
The high end needle to start should be around 1 3/4
Check your exhaust pressure line.
Check all of your fuel lines and fittings.
The clutch liner gap is correct, no need to worry about that anymore. One thing that will cause a clutch to slip is grease and oil. However, once your helicopter spooled up to a normal head speed and you were applying pitch, I did not hear the clutch slip at all.
If you are new to nitro, tuning is one of the most difficult aspects of owning a nitro powered helicopter. The next is knowing the warning signs of when your engine needs to be rebuilt. With an OS55HZ, with regular flying, the engine should be rebuilt at least once a year. If the engine has been sitting for a long period of time without some sort of engine treatment applied, the rear bearing will rust and cause all sorts of problems.
If you can not get it tuned properly before IRCHA, I would be more than happy to help you tune the engine at IRCHA.
Thanks!
Matt Botos
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Thanks Matt, I'll try to richen it a bit and see. The funny thing is I have had about the same needle settings on my Fury 55 (1 3/4 both needles) and didn't have this problem. But I will try what you suggest and see how it goes.
1/2 on the mid needle seems incredibly lean, is that right or did you mean 1 1/2?
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Thanks Matt, I'll try to richen it a bit and see.
I meant lean ::)
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Hi,
Ur Mechanic sounds good but ur motor is running very rich.
The tuning Videos from Tim jones are awesome to set ur needles.
https://youtu.be/YvU3FiiuMxE
Maybe u watch it first before u destroy ur engine 😉
Greetings from switzerland
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I watched the videos, good info there!
So good news, I leaned the needles up and it was much easier to spool up. I set the idle screw in the middle (it was a few degrees rich), set the mid needle to 1 1/2, and the high to 1 3/4. So from before that is 2 clicks in on the high needle, and 12 clicks in on the mid (lol).
I am going to upload 2 videos, one when I was using throttle curves, and one after I switched to governor. I proceeded to lean the high needle another 2 clicks in the second video, because I thought the engine sounded like it was gurgling in the climb out. But then in the same flight I thought I heard a pinging sound (although it was when the muffler was pointing at me so i don't know if that counts) so clearly my ear is not trained ::)
When the videos go up I would love if any of you could try to listen to it and tell me if my thinking is straight :D
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Careful going too lean until you finish breaking in the ring. It will smooth out some and not seem as rich once the ring is set. Then you can start leaning for power.
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Careful going too lean until you finish breaking in the ring. It will smooth out some and not seem as rich once the ring is set. Then you can start leaning for power.
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This engine was broken in prior to building this helicopter. It was run in a Fury 55. I generally ran it at 1 3/4 on both needles after broken in.
The reason I was running it rich now was because I just did some work on the Magnum bushing (not sure what your opinions are on the thing in this forum, i know some love it and some hate it), and was giving it a mini break in.
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Videos are stuck at 0% uploading. I guess Youtube is having some server issues.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-wN6gtDQBU&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-wN6gtDQBU&feature=youtu.be)
Okay here is the first video. I am still on throttle curves at this point. Nothing special but as you can see I was able to take off much easier this time. Doing some punch outs to try to get an ear for what rich sounds like. I "think" I hear gurgling, but I am not sure. At 3:10 I land and take off again to see if spool up is any easier on a warm engine, i think it is. Conclusion is that I am still rich, have no power, but I decide it's time to switch the governor back on and see if anything has changed, and go from there. That is next video.
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Hello Jacob,
You are still very rich. Your tic tocs loaded down the motor almost immediately. Most of your flying in the video is in the mid range, you are rarely using the high needle. However, the high needle needs to be set as close as possible first.
Settings will vary depending on the following....
- Nitro percentage (assuming you are running 30%)
- Fuel Quality (only Cool Power, Byrons, and VP)
- shims under the head?
- elevation where you fly (I fly around 800ft)
- carb style (hz-r regulated or muffler pressure)
- flying style
- carb production (all carbs are not the same)
- Magnum bushing (I do not care for it, there is no substitute for a bearing)
I'll help you at IRCHA. :)
Matt
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Yeah it seems like it, and it's hard to open up the throttle in such a small space. I don't have a field near me that isn't full of corn stalks. Here are some answers to your questions:
-30% nitro
-Byron
-Stock shim
-Around 450 feet
-Muffler pressure
-Mildish 3D (This is generally how I fly when I am not worrying about tuning a motor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoPmZ7m24ao (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoPmZ7m24ao))
-OS carb 40L
Thanks, Matt. At IRCHA I'm going to be switching out this motor for a brand new OS 55 HZ-R and having a friend help me break in and tune it who has much more experience than me. You are welcome to take a look at it if you'd like!
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2qxh7e_sAM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2qxh7e_sAM)
I finally got Youtube to cooperate. Here is the second video. Sorry about the camera going out of focus, that doesn't usually happen. Maybe the smoke confuses it.
I turned the governor back on, using recommended throttle curves on my transmitter. Governor is set to spool to 1900 and Idle 1 is set to 2000. Idle 2 is 2100 but I don't think I'll use that as the power band of the motor should be sitting at 2000 with this gear ratio. Spool up was still slow but I was able to take off.
In the initial punch outs around 1:50 I am hearing what I think are gurgling noises. Can you confirm that is what gurgling sounds like?
I can tell I am still very rich so at 2:30 I bring it down and lean the high needle 2 clicks to see what change it makes. It definitely helped the punchouts and tic tocs, but I think it's still pretty rich. Spooling up I am unable to get it going again, but the rpm it's sitting is much higher than before the changes. Before the blades wouldn't even spin. Switching into Idle 1 here gets me up in the air. After this flight I adjust my normal mode throttle curve a little higher and it seems to have helped spool up quicker, and not get stuck like what happened at around the 4 minute mark.
4:40 punch outs I still hear gurgling. I also notice very quick recovery after tic tocs, so I know that means rich.
I am not sure in this flight where I heard the pinging noise. I don't hear anything while rewatching the video. Maybe it was just my imagination.
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I can definitely hear what sounds like a rich gurgle on punch outs. The smoke trail is also very large when you are climbing out.
Which muffler are you using?
Matt
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I haven't changed the settings much yet. Mid still at 1 1/2 and high 2 clicks lean from 1 3/4.
I have the Funtech B320
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqyEktJA9-g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqyEktJA9-g)
Flight from today, same settings. So overall it felt great, the only lack of power I felt was during tic tocs. Is that because of rich high end or rich mid range?
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Hmm i dont use governor for the needle settings and for general flying.
But first lean the high needle and
check again.
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Nice flying! There is something "real" about watching a nitro heli fly --- love the sound / smell / visual of the smoke 8)
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Deleted
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According to the OS Manual for a HZR - initial settings Mid 1 High 2. For an HZ - Mid 2 High 2.
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