What Headspeed should be possible with this setup on E5

[awesomeOne]

I have recently picked up a Synergy E5.
It has ....
Castle ICE2 130 HV
Scorpion HKIII 4025-1100 (10 poles)
13T pinion
119T main
 CGY750
6s 5000 65c pulse

Initially it was set up with headspeed of 2160/2260/2335. I was watching as someone checked the ESC setup and all looked good, however now after purchasing my own castle link it reports that the Hs of 2335 is at 97.5% and not recommended.

I don't think I accidentally changed anything although it's possible. I did setup the auto bailout and upped the parameter that ramps the HS backup in bailout. I didn't think that would effect it?

I lowered the value of the 3rd HS to 2280 before it accepted it and within tolerance.

My question us, with the setup I have what is the max HS I should expect to get? And is there anything I may have stuffed up to cause the castle to report this where it didn't previously? Could It be due to different software on my mates computer?

[curmudgeon]

The E5 is an awesome bird.  Congratulations on your purchase.

Consider plugging your numbers on the MrMel Headspeed calculator.  Assuming you are going with a 6S setup and and using the Castle governor, you'll get the Castle warning at beyond 2280rmp with the 13T pinion and 2456rpm with the 14T pinion.

Assuming your are spinning the Rail 96mm tail blades, the optimal tail RPM for this bird is between 9,500 and 10,000rpm.  Assuming you have the stock 4.0:1 tail gear ratio, that corresponds to between 2,375 and 2,500rpm head speed.  With the optional 4.5:1 tail ratio, the optimal head speed would be between 2,111 and 2,222rpm.

Governing at 2,335rpm (97.5% on Castle) will work, but the Castle governor would not have much head room to work with, so expect the head speed to bog and not stay consistent when you bang on the sticks.

[awesomeOne]

Thanks @curmudgeon.. Your assumptions are correct. I am not 100% sure but I believe it yo be a standard E5 kit build so all parts are those that came with the kit. It's second hand so am not 100%sure.

Your observations may explain why I like flying it at the 2nd head speed instead of the 3rd. It's also a lot less brutal on the packs.

How did you calculate your RPM advice? Where did you get all the tail gear ration settings etc? I would like to educate myself in this area and learn how to interpret governor logs etc...

[awesomeOne]

Ok just retread your post and realised I've read it incorrectly. How can I tell what ratio my tail blades are at?

[awesomeOne]

Also I need to check when I get home, but if think I have 106 tail blades...

[curmudgeon]

Page 12 on the manual discusses tail gear ratios.




So the stock kit comes with 52T and 13T gears for a 4.0:1 tail gear ratio.  However, if you want to go with lower head speed and still maintain optimal tail authority, the 54T/12T gears are available to increase the tail ratio to 4.5:1.  My guess is that you may have to count the teeth in gears to verify what you have, or contact the seller.

About your current head speed, you can always use the HeliTach app on your phone.  It is pretty accurate.

About the optimal tail speed of 9,500 to 10,000rpm with the 96mm blades, I learned that from the forums.  Seems to work well.  I believe Matt himself recommended it.

[Mike Spano]

the ESC gov actually prefers you to be around 90%-95% throttle at  your target HS. don't worry about the warnings that it gives. as long as your not at 99% or 100%, you will be just fine. I have not experienced any true bogging while flying mine with your exact setup. I fly mine at 2350 and 2450HS. If you setup your gov to any less than 80-85% throttle, your ESC will get vey hot, keep an eye on this and you will notice it.

end of line, your setup if perfectly fine.

[awesomeOne]

Thanks Mike, good information.

It's been challenging to find good info on how to analyse and interpret the castle log graphs, so hence all the forum questions.

I was considering trying the same setup with 4500 pack of either same or reduced C rating. However at the same C rating the weight difference is 36g and with a 45C rating 66g.

I suspect I would see reduced flight time with the first as 36g is probably not significant, but would like to see the comparison with the 66g difference as I suspect my flight time may be the same or increase. This is assuming that my flying style doesn't  demand the full capability of the 65c.

Have you tried other pack types on your setup?

[Mike Spano]

I am not a big weight guy. meaning, I don't try to shave every last half a gram off of my helis, so I haven't experimented with different capacities vs. flight time vs. weight. to me, a little weight is a good thing, it helps the heli "stay in the groove" and "pull itself" through turns and maneuvers. yes, you lose a little "pop", but the power and energy is still there.

as far as flight times go, I set my timer on my E5 with 556mm blades on 6s at 3:30. that heli is so fast and light, any longer and my brain is going nuts! lol it also happens to be right at 70% discharge on my Thunder Power 70C 5000ma 6 cell packs.

on my E5 with 626mm blades on 12s (2 x 6s 70C 3300ma), I set my timer to 4:30, with the same effect on my brain and my packs! haha.

the larger heli, the longer I can fly it. something about the smaller helis work my mind more when I am flying them. the more MA, the longer the flight time though. my spyder packs that are 5300ma give me a tad longer flight time, like 20-30seconds...

[curmudgeon]

I was considering trying the same setup with 4500 pack of either same or reduced C rating. However at the same C rating the weight difference is 36g and with a 45C rating 66g.

I suspect I would see reduced flight time with the first as 36g is probably not significant, but would like to see the comparison with the 66g difference as I suspect my flight time may be the same or increase. This is assuming that my flying style doesn't  demand the full capability of the 65c.

I started the hobby in 2011 with a flybarred T-Rex 550.  The recommendation back then was to use 6S 5000mah packs.  Until last year, I owned a total of fourteen 6S 5000mah packs ranging from 40C to 65C.  When I became interested in Synergy, there was a video where Matt discusses how the lighter 4400mah packs may be a better option for the 550 size class.  I now own twelve 6S 4400-4500mah 45C-60C packs, and sold all of my 5000mah packs.

These 4400-4500mah packs work really well with the 550 and 700 class machines.  They are slightly smaller than the 5000mah packs, so they are a bit easier to install and unistall, making back to back flights a bit faster.  I can feel how the helicopter feels more nimble, too.

I like to fly between 4:30 and 5:30 minutes.  If I fly any longer than that, my flying gets sloppier.

I have the timer set to 4:30 on the 550 size Synergy E5.  I land shortly after the timer goes off.  I fly it at 2400rpm HS which is a respectable head speed.  I charge back an average of 2,683mah on those 4400mah packs.  So I am using only 61% of the capacity.

On my Synergy E7SE, I have the timer set to 5:00 minutes.  I spin the 716mm blades at a little over 2000rpm.  I charge back an average of 2,608mah per pack, so I am only using 59% capacity.  I don’t like to fly any longer than that.  If I used the 5000mah packs, I would just be carrying unnecessary weight.

I also carry between 8 and 12 packs at a time to the field on a bag.  The 4400 packs range in weight between 704g and 746g,  The 5000 packs range between 802g and 864g.  The battery bag feels much lighter with the 4400 packs.

[awesomeOne]

Good info... Any specific brand of battery you prefer for the 44-4500 packs?

[curmudgeon]

These are the only 4400-4500mah packs I have tried.




The Glacier's are my overall favorite.  I own 6 of them, and all 6 perform equally well.  The IR is on the lower range, around 2mOhm per cell at around 11 cycles.  They weigh between 716g and 718g.  They come with EC5 connectors already soldered and balance plug protectors.  I like the clear wrapper design that allows you to visually inspect the individual cells.  BuddyRC tests all the larger packs before they ship which minimizes the chances of receiving a DUD.  At $91.95 minus the 5% Facebook discount and free shipping (over $100 purchase), they are very well priced.

I also like the Thor's.  Low IR and EC5 connectors already soldered.  I got them with the 50% discount from ReadyHeli.  Unfortunately, you can't find them anymore.

The Pulse Ultra's are a very good choice.  Weighing 758g, they are heavier than the Glacier's, but they also have an extra 100mah capacity.  They do not come with soldered connectors (at least not when I bought mine) or balance plug protectors.  Like the Glacier's, they also have a clear wrapper that allows you to visually inspect the individual cells.  At $124.95, even with the occasional 10% to 15% discounts are more expensive than the Glacier's.

I cannot recommend the Revolectrix's.  The IR is about 60% higher than the other packs.  They come down at a lower voltage than the other packs, and take more charge after a flight.  They do not come with soldered connectors or balance plug protectors.  The only redeeming quality is that they weigh less than other packs, 688g and 704g. The dark wrapping does not allow you to visually inspect the individual cells.  At $119.99, there are better choices available.

[Mike Spano]

the Revolectrix pack you have in that picture looks A LOT like packs my LHS sells as "no name" brand packs. they are solid black like that, the leads and the balance wires are in the exact same place too. they are great packs at first, but only great for about 15-20 cycles, then begin to age quickly. the IR stays low for 15-20 cycles too, then begins to increase. they are a little larger than my thunder powers and pulse packs too. I like buying locally when I can, but I doubt I buy more of these......I did buy 3 cells for my night rig from them though, they don't need to be great packs, only small enough to easily mount.

notice, I didn't even mention I owned them in previous posts due to the issues above...

they sell them by saying "there are only 3 companies in China that make cells. these cells are just as likely to be the same ones thunder power uses, as they are the ones that pulse or spyder uses..." this may be true, but the thunder power, pulse, and spyders last longer... spyder seems to be my favorite at the moment, but they are not in a clear wrapper, so you cant inspect individual cells like the pulse or TP...

[curmudgeon]

RCHN episode 127 has a one hour long interview with Dave Grey from Progressive RC.  He discussed power supplies, chargers, and LiPo's.  These are some of the points he made:

1) There are about 30 to 35 LiPo manufacturers.

2) C rating.  He discussed some of the criteria associated with C rating.  According to him, if you follow conservative criteria, modern consumer grade LiPo's can only achieve 30 to 35C max.  There are higher true C rated batteries, but they are too expensive for regular consumers.  He mentioned that if you relax the criteria, you can claim higher C ratings, but you would not be comparing apples to apples.

3) He discussed short and long term storage of LiPo's

4) He discussed LiPo break-in and charge "forming".

5) He discussed the Spyder LiPo's.

It is a very informative episode.