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Author Topic: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts  (Read 3319 times)

Offline curmudgeon

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Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« on: January 26, 2013, 04:53:25 PM »
The E5 seems like a high quality helicopter with design innovations and beefy over-engineered components.  However, the way the kit is shipped with pre-assembled components is making the build not as straight forward as could be.

I understand that having components loosely pre-assembled makes it easier for Synergy to make sure all components are included and that nothing is missing.  From the customer end, it is nice to not have to look through bags of hardware, and possible get similarly looking hardware confused.  However, if some pre-assembled parts are going to indiscriminantly be assembled with Loctite or some other kind of adhesive, I rather not have any of the components pre-assembled at all.

The worst offender so far is the spindle shaft.  Not just Loctite, but Red Loctite?  If for whatever reason (legal reasons have been rumored) Synergy cannot ship spindle shafts pre-assembled without Red Loctite, please do not ship pre-assembled.  Yes, I know I can apply heat to loosen up the screws, but there should not be a need to do that in the first place. >:(

Pre-assembing the two mushroom gears is also not good.  The mushroom gears are difficult to remove without potentially damaging the bearings.  I like to grease these high rpm bearings with the greaser, but I do not want to risk destroying the bearings in the process of accessing them.

The tail Pitch Slider Assembly is another one.  I almost destroyed it trying take it apart to apply Loctite and CA like the manual states.  If Synergy is going to pre-assemble this part with Loctite, the manual should reflect so.

Lastly, all screws come with a protective film of oil.  I understand that I have to clean off each screw individually.  However, how does one clean off the oil residue from inner threads?  Q-tips are too big to fit inside M3 and smaller holes.  I would prefer if the inner threads were not contaminated with oil from pre-assembly.

BTW, my wife does not want me to place parts either in the oven or in the freezer or anywhere food goes in order to loosen parts.

I can only imagine the research and development that took place to engineer the E5.  After all that effort, it's silly loose points due to shipping with detrimentally pre-assembled components.

Offline Brandon Bartolomucci

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Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 08:46:45 PM »
Sorry that you had some trouble along the way. In regards to the parts with screws and such that belong to other parts: since they need to be disassembled for Loctite and cleaning anyway I found it the most helpful to group certain screws and bolts together and as the manual called for their use I would draw from their pile. In the end, it was much better to have all parts accounted for rather than being unable to finish my build because of having to wait for something that wasn't in the box at all.

In regards to the bearings, the only ones that need grease are the thrust bearings. The radials are fine as they come so you wouldn't need to disassemble or fill them with anything.

Moving to the tail pitch slider, the red Loctite suggestion is for extra security and is not necessary. Many of us left the slider as is from the factory with no ill effects.

Cleaning the oil: I personally (and again this is me speaking for myself) only clean off the screw portion with an alcohol wipe then apply Loctite and assemble the parts. I've never had a screw back out on me. That being said, I know of a few hobbyists who just set aside a small bowl of de-natured alcohol and will put parts such as braces and grips and such (without bearings in them of course) in the bowl and then dry them off/blow them out with canned air. A toothpick with a drop of cleaning solution can also be used to reach in the tough spots.

Red Loctite: I didn't experience any difficulties with disassembly however I may not have noticed as I was just plugging away at my build; however heat usually must be applied to get the bearings out anyway to grease the thrust bearings so I would just Pre-heat a soldering iron or use my trusty heat gun for 30 seconds or so and it will free right up.

Of course in the end we are all here for help and support so if you run into a rough patch in any way, never hesitate to ask us. Someone will gladly help you through it.


Regards,
Brandon Bartolomucci
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 09:45:53 PM by Brandon Bartolomucci »
Regards,
Brandon Bartolomucci
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Offline RichL

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 10:21:27 PM »
The E5 seems like a high quality helicopter with design innovations and beefy over-engineered components.  However, the way the kit is shipped with pre-assembled components is making the build not as straight forward as could be.

I understand that having components loosely pre-assembled makes it easier for Synergy to make sure all components are included and that nothing is missing.  From the customer end, it is nice to not have to look through bags of hardware, and possible get similarly looking hardware confused.  However, if some pre-assembled parts are going to indiscriminantly be assembled with Loctite or some other kind of adhesive, I rather not have any of the components pre-assembled at all.

The worst offender so far is the spindle shaft.  Not just Loctite, but Red Loctite?  If for whatever reason (legal reasons have been rumored) Synergy cannot ship spindle shafts pre-assembled without Red Loctite, please do not ship pre-assembled.  Yes, I know I can apply heat to loosen up the screws, but there should not be a need to do that in the first place. >:(

Pre-assembing the two mushroom gears is also not good.  The mushroom gears are difficult to remove without potentially damaging the bearings.  I like to grease these high rpm bearings with the greaser, but I do not want to risk destroying the bearings in the process of accessing them.

The tail Pitch Slider Assembly is another one.  I almost destroyed it trying take it apart to apply Loctite and CA like the manual states.  If Synergy is going to pre-assemble this part with Loctite, the manual should reflect so.

Lastly, all screws come with a protective film of oil.  I understand that I have to clean off each screw individually.  However, how does one clean off the oil residue from inner threads?  Q-tips are too big to fit inside M3 and smaller holes.  I would prefer if the inner threads were not contaminated with oil from pre-assembly.

BTW, my wife does not want me to place parts either in the oven or in the freezer or anywhere food goes in order to loosen parts.

I can only imagine the research and development that took place to engineer the E5.  After all that effort, it's silly loose points due to shipping with detrimentally pre-assembled components.

I have assembled two Synergy E5s and assisted in the assembly of a number of others.  In addition I have assembled a E7 and I disagree with some of your statements.  I find the Synergy E5 build pretty straight forward.

Having loosely pre-assembled modules helps new to Synergy builders understand how components or sub assemblies should be assembled.  Further, nothing is more frustrating than a kit missing pieces if you have never experienced this then my guess is that you have been very lucky.  I have assembled helicopter kits from two other major manufactures both of which were missing parts.  The replacement parts took nearly a week to arrive further adding to my unhappiness.

The reason that some parts are assembled with thread lock is because of the refusal of people to take responsibility for their actions or in this case lack of action (IE. forgetting to thread lock main blade grips to the head axle shaft).  This of course leads injury which leads to litigation which in turn leads to higher prices for the consumer (you, me, us).  Next, lets assume that nothing was thread locked and all of the parts were bagged as you suggest.  You build your new helicopter per the instructions and it flies great.  Sooner or later you are going to crash it (hopefully much later).  After you crash your helicopter are you not then going to repair it?  If so would you not have to deal with the same thread lock that you are dealing with now?  If you are having problems disassembling the head axle shaft I would suggest that maybe you do not have the proper tools. I know that you have "T" handle wrenches from your previous posts.  If you also have a Grippy nothing more is required except torque.  Heat will reduce the amount of torque required but if you are using quality hardened tools even red Locktite will break loose without heat.  I really dislike digging through bags of parts and hope the current method continues. 

Every kit manufactures bolts have oil on them without exception.  The oil exists because when you use a die to cut threads on a bolt there has to lubricant present to lubricate the cutter.  I am unaware of a helicopter manufacture that removes all of the oil before shipping.  From a practical stand point all that is required is to drop the bolts and or components in a bowl containing denatured alcohol let them sit a minute, remove them from the bowl and let them dry.  The whole process takes only a few minutes which IMHO is much less time that it would take to dig through a bunch of plastic bags for parts.  The other option is to use Locktite 243 which is oil insensitive.

The freezer and oven trick I mentioned are for those that don't have proper tools on hand in most cases.  That said, if you have ever had to replace the bearings in a nitro motor, heating the crank case in order to remove the old bearings is standard practice. I guess this is the reason it seems pretty natural to me to have to heat parts like blade grips and bearing blocks to remove the bearings.

When I joined the world of RC if you wanted to fly something you purchased plans and Balsa Wood and built it.  If you were lucky you could find a kit that you liked with die cut Balsa parts (woohoo  ;D) but, you still had to build it.  Building required skill, patients and the right tools for the task. Today the RC world is inundated with ready to fly airplanes and helicopters, simply take them out of the box charge them up and fly.  What has been lost to parts of our hobby is the skill and patients involved with actual modeling. When the ARF / RTF fliers crash one of three things generally takes place. One, they quit the hobby. Two, they buy a new ARF.  Three, they ask you to fix it.  I remember a time that if you showed up at a club flying site with a ARF aircraft that you would be practically shunned. Today when you visit most club airfields all you see are ARFs and foam aircraft.  I don't want a cookie cutter helicopter (you purchased a Synergy obviously neither do you)  and I have no desire to be part of the "herd" of people that do.  Yes, Synergy helicopters require some modeling skills to complete.  Yes, they require tools that the plastic snap together helicopters do not but, in the end you have a helicopter that will reward you with great flight performance and durability.  When newbies ask, "You have to build it?" or "you built that?" you can have a since of pride in answering, "Yes I did!"

I have on a couple of occasions heard Matt say " his helicopter kits are not for beginners or novice builders" I always argue the point that anyone with some modeling skills, some mechanical aptitude and the proper tools can build any Synergy kit.  Lacking any one of these can make the build seem more difficult than it actually is. 

I hope that I'm not misguided in thinking that there are many of us that still enjoy the building stage of modeling, to include the challenging parts.  After building kits from other manufactures I can't think of a single thing I would change in the way Synergy kits arrive.  Synergy helicopters are "builders helicopters" and I for one hope that never changes. IMHO Synergy hasn't lost any points!


Rich
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 03:33:05 AM by RichL »
Synergy E5: Scorpion HKIII 4025-1100, CC ICE2 120HV, Rail 556/96, V-Bar Silverline

Synergy E7: Quantum 4530-500, CC ICE2 160HV, Rail 716/116, V-Bar Silverline

Offline curmudgeon

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2013, 12:25:32 AM »
Considering some of the responses, I believe I may not have communicated my concerns properly.  It is not my intention to offend or attack Synergy.  As an Iraq combat veteran, I am very proud to see an American company succeed in a competitive market.

I began my original comments stating many positive attributes of the E5, recognizing the ingenuity and effort in designing this helicopter.  However, like most things in life, the E5 ownership experience has some room for improvement.  Again, not so much on the design of the E5, but on the customer delivery of the E5.  I am not taking a jab at Matt or Synergy.  I am merely pointing out some aspects of the shipping process of this fine product that may deserve revisiting.  If after careful consideration Synergy considers that the current method of shipping is optimal or works well enough, then it may not be in Synergy's best interest to make any changes.  However, if Synergy is interested in customer feedback and is aggressively seeking ways to make an already extraordinary product better and at the same time capture more market share, my concerns may be worth considering.

It is my hope that despite our disagreeing views, we will to continue to have a mutually cooperative relation in this forum.

Offline gashead

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2013, 01:55:05 AM »
It just seems to me the the op is not experienced or have never built a heli before? this comes from reading a lot of posts on the freak and here, i have never heard of anyone trying to re-grease all the bearings in a kit before ever apart from radials, and the other reason is i have built 3 synergys E5/7 and never had any problems, apart from E7 pushrod shafts not threaded all the way and one bearing notchy on the E5 build.

Offline Ben Kerr

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2013, 03:41:29 AM »
Before building my E5 the only other heli I built was my T-Rex 450 pro and I rebuilt a 600n. I was really impressed with the overall build on the E5. It was a really easy build and the manual was put together great. While the pre-assembled parts did add to the overall time it took me to build, it made it easier to see how the parts were supposed to fit together. The only part I had a problem getting apart was the spindle and that was only because I didn't have the right tool at the time.  The only thing I would like to see changed is a list of tools and supplies required for the build added to the manual. Now I just need winter to be over so I can get out and get some flights on it. Great job Matt, can't wait to see what is next.
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Offline steffgiguere

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2013, 07:20:49 AM »
Sorry johnahamelv, but nowadays most rc helicopter manufacturers do ship partly assembled kits because of customer demand. Easier and faster to build, because you understand how to put the parts together, and the extra advantage is to be sure to have no missing parts. This way you don't need to be a pro builder to assemble a new kit, which is very good because this hobby has seen a great number of new pilots lately.
Good luck in your build.
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Offline Jean-Luc Bolduc

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 07:45:59 AM »
The spindle bolts removal required a T handle 4mm allen and a good amount of torque on my 2x E5 when I assembled them. I agree that it seem illogical to loctite the bolts, when you have to take them apart to grease the thrust bearings.
Perhaps it was thought that most would use the grease hole with a syringe (Botolube) to grease the thrusts.

On the oiled screws, they use it to prevent rust, since most parts are pre-assembled and not in separate bags. Synergy is not the only mfg to supply them that way, but I do also prefer them clean, saves a bit of time. That's the reason I switched to Loctite 243.

http://www.wihatools.com/300seri/334serie.htm
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 07:48:23 AM by 4cyclic »
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Offline bleomycin

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2013, 12:12:10 AM »
I'm one of the very inexperienced people who got the bright idea after reading these and other forums that every bearing, regardless of type, needed to be greased and wasted a ton of time and effort needlessly trying to remove them all. I'll admit i was a little disgruntled at the time because i ruined some parts, cut up my hands pretty good, burned my fingers and wasted a ton of time for nothing. After having some time to think it over and knowing the bearings do not need to be greased i'm now fine with how the kit is assembled from the factory.

One suggestion i would make that could potentially help many new builders from making the same mistakes i did is to add a page in the beginning of the manual explaining what needs grease, which tools are absolutely required (grippy duo), and what needs to be cleaned. This thread has just taught me i should have been wiping down every bolt with alcohol before applying loctite. I did not know that, i'm fairly certain the manual did not state that, and i'm pretty worried i have to pull the whole heli apart now to clean and reapply loctite to every bolt... :o During my frustrations working through the build i downloaded some Goblin and miniature aircraft USA manuals and found them to be far more thorough than the E5. The E5 manual assumes the builder knows exactly what they are doing and provides very little guidance, all well and good for an experienced builder, not so much for me.

Other than the shortcomings of the manual failing to explain what is obvious to those who already posses the knowledge i am extremely pleased and impressed with the kit, cannot wait to go flying, and already have a friend who is quite interested in picking up an E5 after seeing the quality of the components.

Offline Brandon Bartolomucci

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Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 07:59:52 AM »
The Synergy kits have the potential to be a bit over whelming to those who have limited experience under their belts when it comes to building as they are designed with the fully experienced modeler in mind.

That being said, that is where this and other forums come into play. They are supplementary to a manual really. When someone is unsure of a step to take we welcome the questions that may pop up. While we may guide a new builder to a place where the information is already housed, we won't chastise anyone for asking. Please don't hesitate to do so.


Regards,
Brandon Bartolomucci
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Regards,
Brandon Bartolomucci
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Offline Rodney Kirstine

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 08:31:35 AM »
Quote
This thread has just taught me i should have been wiping down every bolt with alcohol before applying loctite. I did not know that, i'm fairly certain the manual did not state that, and i'm pretty worried i have to pull the whole heli apart now to clean and reapply loctite to every bolt...

It's at the bottom of Page 3 in the manual.

Rodney
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Offline curmudgeon

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2013, 11:25:42 AM »
During my frustrations working through the build i downloaded some Goblin and miniature aircraft USA manuals and found them to be far more thorough than the E5.
To be fair, my Whiplash required some "modeling skills" beyond the manual.  Still, the Whiplash manual clearly states which components are "Factory Assembled" (tail assembly, bearing blocks, sprag cup, etc), and Jeff Miller will reassure you that those "Factory Assembled" components can be used as is, as they have already been Loctited and lubed.  Ideally, the E5 manual would state that certain parts are "factory assembled" and not meant to be disassembled for Loctiting or lubing purposes (bearings in bearing blocks, mushroom gear bearings, tail pitch slider assembly); the E5 manual mainly shows an exploded view diagram, leaving it up the end modeler to make a best guess whether to disassemble the parts and risk destroying them if previously Loctited, or assume they were Loctited, and risk a mid-flight failure.

BTW, the rest of the Whiplash screws and hardware came in separate bags unassembled, and not a single part was missing.

Offline NKY Heli Guy

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Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2013, 08:27:46 PM »
I've built 3- trex 450's, 1-trex 250 and this build by far was the easiest. To me with my previous experiences, it appears that most manufactures ship their Heli's similar to what you have received. I'm sure they come assembled in packages, pre assembled and so forth for a multitude of reasons.

I've found it helpful to take apart the pre assembled portion of the build to ensure that locktight is assembled to your satisfaction. In addition it will help with reassembly to know all of the parts should you have a crash... and you will... we all do :)

If you are new to the hobby welcome, once you get this build under your belt you will know the Heli inside and out and gain additional knowledge for future builds.


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Offline curmudgeon

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2013, 09:16:27 PM »
Yes.  I am very new to the hobby.  2 years since I flew the "gateway" coaxial heli from Brookstone. :D  I've only previously built a FB T550 which I have since converted to FBL (SK-720 and now VBar SL) with lots of KDE upgrades, a T600Pro with lots of upgrades, and a Whiplash.  This is my first Synergy, and currently finishing it as a E5/s.  So far, except for the plastic tail slider, there is really nothing that merits upgrading, either in quality or design, but there is always room for personalization.  I welcome all the help and suggestions.

Offline Greg Jackson

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Re: Please, consider not shipping with pre-assembled parts
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2013, 12:05:54 AM »
Sorry you had some issues.  This was my first synergy but I've built a few kits before.  I loved how things were preassembled so that you knew how the parts should go back together.  Not saying this was the easiest build ever but I just want to say I like the preassembled parts.
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