Motor pinion to support bearing gap?

[RichH]

You want the pinion resting on the third bearing so it takes the thrust loads created by the slant gears. My pinions looked the same, as did the motor shaft where you can see signs of fretting. I would replace the motor shaft and bearing also and use Loctite per above.


Rich

[Kevin Feil]

Steve,

I've been reading this post after Alan brought this to my attention, First things first. I can assure you Matt didn't redesign the Gear train for this reason. In fact this is the only time I have ever seen this, Actually the second time! ( the first time the lower bearing block was bent ever so slightly from a major crash head first. And yours being the second case. The Side plates were used as a means of dissipating heat from the motor, now a two for one is that they also add to the already rigid frame. Again not an issue in the past models , just an inhancment on the new. (killing two birds with one stone) so to speak. I can assure you that these frames are more than capable of handling anything you can possibly imagine to throw at it. "The Best of the Best have flown these machines and beat the ever loving crap out off them, Tareq Alsaadi is a friend of mine and I can assure you there is know one on this planet that has beaten on a synergy harder than him with (no issues at all) I think the word Design issue or Re-design is a bit over kill. I myself would love to see a clear picture of your set up, showing Gear mesh, Pinion Spacing, and the Main Gear that came out off this bird along with the lower bearing block. Has this bird been in any crashes and to what extent.  And yes the hacker motor do develop a "bit of Up and Down play. Is your bearing perfectly center as well as seated in the "hopefully Perfectly Flat" lower bearing block? Are you replacing these bearings in the lower block.? ( that goes along the same lines as the previous question) also are you properly aligning the motor vertically with the lower bearing block ( Is it slightly canted)? These are all very valid questions that need to be answered as well as debunked. Please do not take these questions as a personal attack nor am I doubting your abilities as a builder, these are questions that also help others in the builds.  Like I said before I have never seen this issue before and I'm one of the Senior Members of this Team even though the Post. Count may not reflect it. Lol I can say I have been with Synergy through out al, the designs less the N9 and N5.  I  do want to make it clear to all that may read this post that ( The issues you are having we're in No Way the result of a design flaw. Anyone who knows Matt knows that he is never satisfied when it comes to his Designes! He is always through countless hours of flying and punishing his machines thinking of ways to come up with new ideas to better the Brand, If you think about it and really study him and the designs, the concept kinda stays the same, where his machines evolve above others is he is always looking at coming up with ways of TAYLORING the models to each individual owner and let them have the ability to Dial there machines in to suit there flying style. Make no bones about it, you have the best Machine out there with the Best Hands Down Support network you will ever find in this hobby, I challenge you to find that elsewhere.. I hope you enjoy your Synergys for years to come. If you could just help us out in answering the above questions and lets find the real cause of the issues you had..

Best Regards,

Kevin

[stevehof]

Hi Kevin,

OK, you asked a lot of questions about my setup and equipment. I'll do my best to answer them. First I have a question for you. Why was the gear pitch (slant) changed if not to reduce the downward pressure on the pinion support bearing? I believe another team member stated in this thread that this was the reason the slant angle was changed. Also, I've read this explanation elsewhere on a couple of occasions.

OK, while I'm awaiting your answer on this question, I'll try to answer your questions. I have FOUR flying Synergy E7s. Two have the metal side braces and two do not. I have had this problem on three of the four ships. The fourth ship has never been apart. It is my reserve and only has a couple dozen flights on it. The problem occurred on both with metal side braces and one ship without the side braces.

As far as alignment of the motor goes. I did my best. You are kind of limited with motor/pinion parallelism adjustment due to the fact that the frame holes are slotted for fore-aft adjustment but NOT for cant. Surely the metal side braces should help motor pinion support alignment but if you have a method for vertical alignment, I'm interested to hear about it.

Gear mesh was set by feel. Just the slightest play on the high side of the main gear. I did replace the pinion support bearings, of course, after noting the worn pinion face and aluminum impacted bearing tops. I do know the pinions did not slip down on the motor shaft since the indentations from the set screw on the motor shafts were perfectly round without any sign of a smear. The main gear off the Quantum motor setup, which had a lot of miles on it and was quite worn had an even wear pattern. Nothing to suggest that the pinion was not sitting square on the gear. I have already thrown it away, so no photo available.

Believe it or not, none of these ships have been crashed. I fly 3 to 5 times a week and I'm on a long winning streak as far as crashes go. Although, having stated that, I'm pretty sure I will crash this week...Lol. I am an RC pilot of 15 years rotary wing experience and I can fly my ships in any direction including pirouetting circuits in any orientation or direction. I'd call my flying style slow easy 3D. I do not fly smack or hard 3D. So, I am a heavy user but not 'hard' on my ships. I am a formally trained gunsmith so I have plenty of experience with small mechanical stuff, including the 15 years of RC heli hobby going back to Kyosho Concept 30 and 60 and Shuttle ZX. Not bragging just letting you know this is not my first rodeo on any front.

I don't believe I ever stated that the original gear train was defective or flawed? Did I infer that it was made better when I used the term redesign?  I think that would be a more accurate way to describe the intent of my comments. I am grateful that the change in gear slant was implemented. I am looking forward to seeing how the new gears work out. I also stated in a previous post in this thread that my E7 was my 'all time favorite heli'. This thread was not meant to be a criticism, complaint or rant. I was just trying to find out why this was happening. I did get some good ideas and help. Thanks again to 4cyclic and RichH for the useful suggestions. At least one other person in this thread has had similar problems. So, this is not JUST my private issue.

I don't see any value in taking a bunch of pictures. If there was a problem in my installations I'm pretty sure it would be nearly impossible to see with a photograph. How could you measure tolerances or parallelism in a photograph? I did the best I could with what I had to work with. If there is no obvious previously seen common installation mistake that causes this issue that someone can put forward, then I'm at a loss to understand what happened. Unless...it just goes away with my new style gears....

[Kevin Feil]

Steve,
Thank you for you're reply, for your answer to your question, ( Noise Reduction) was the main reasoning for the change, the other benefits are just the icing on the cake. You not only prove to me you have been around the block with heli's but your old.. J/k. I have 3 concepts tucked away in the attic..
 I will say I disagree with your theory in the (value of a picture) a picture tells a lot in my business, I work and work on/ build/fly real helicopters, and I can assure you myself and many other Team Members have successfully diagnosed issues that seemed impossible to figure out just by talking or a post if you will. I myself can tell a lot based on a picture and it's unfortunate you have since disposed of the suspected parts. I was truly after the main gear, meaning I wanted to see the wear patterns as well as see a picture of your pinion and where it sits (Height wise) in relation to the main gear and lower bearing support.
  I tend to suspect set-up before I deam a fault in the Synergy Product, the only reason I say this ,is because I see it more often than not. Even your most seasoned builders can get bit by the golden BB every now and then. Hell I have made some mistakes over the years and I can pretty much guarantee I have owned more Synergys than anyone including Matt..lol ( yes I'm addicted)    it's evident we will never see some of these parts let alone pics so I only hope that this new set up you have works, if for some reason you don't get it resolved, to further help you I will request Pictures. Also congrats on your Flight Run, that is a lot of flights to not put one in.
 Also I didn't want you to think I saw your Posts as Rants and such, just that for every issue there is a reasonable solution and I was mearly wanting all the facts.  Good luck and hope to here your full Report once airborne .

Best Regards,

Kevin
 I really suspect your motor and pinion mesh and height Steve ,