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Author Topic: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..  (Read 4890 times)

Offline Tom Owen

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E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« on: July 15, 2014, 04:47:26 PM »
Hi all!

Having a few teething problems with me E7 SE, i'm running kontronik Jive 120 with the bec set to 6v with outrage 9080 cyclics and 9088 tail, the tail is fine however i'm having bad stops/sloppy tic tocs etc on my heli.

I've got my head speed at 2150 and i'm running mini Vbar, i've started at 85 cyclic gain with 13 degrees pitch and my stops are so sluggish it doesn't even stop... literally i do a pogo and on my other helis i'm used to getting a pop/solid stop but on this i'm just getting a wish washy stop which seems to stall.

Anyone had this experience so far?

I've got the trueblood dampers in but it just doesn't feel good at the moment and i've tried all sorts!

Style on Vbar is at 75 with 30 paddle sim..

Thanks in advance :)

Offline Scott Anderson

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Re: E7SE stops issues..
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 09:20:05 PM »
I think that most people that are having trouble with stops on cyclic and the tail find that VBar software it the blame.  VBar software is great don't get me wrong however Express is limited to certain parameters that can be adjusted.  The Pro version is what's needed to fine tune the heli to it best performance with Vbar. Mechanically the head and servo geometry was engineered beautifully.  I had my head stock on VBar 5.3 Pro Silverline and the stops where super crisp and response to an input was really aggressive. I was running Savox 1258's on 6V at 2,150 rpm and Rail 696 blades at +-14° collective and 10° cyclic. You have great servos so don't feel that's an issue.
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Offline Tom Owen

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Re: E7SE stops issues..
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2014, 04:02:58 AM »
Thanks for swift reply :)

I'm on pro version of the software and i'm going to set my cyclic to 10 degrees to see if that resolves anything, do you still have that vbar file you were running on the silver line? I know the mini is different but would be interesting to see what was different..

I'll try 13.5 degrees pitch also and update how i get on this evening :)

Thanks again

Offline Scott Anderson

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Re: E7SE stops issues..
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2014, 05:46:40 AM »
You're welcome. I will need to look on my lap top and see if I still have all my files on the E7SE. Have you flown the optimization flight?  If so raise your optimization values up 2 or 3 % also 85% gain sounds a little low I was around 92%. You want to go up on gain has high as you can but not to allow the helicopter to shake
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Offline Tom Owen

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Re: E7SE stops issues..
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 10:50:57 AM »
Hi,

Ok so i changed the setup quite a fair bit after asking around, my cyclic is now at 10 degrees with agility at 100. I put cyclic gain to 90 but it shaked in tic tocs so need to drop it back a few.

Seems that now i have got paddle sim at 45 / cyclic at 10 degrees/ 85 style it's much better, the heli is much more nimble and nippy. It still isn't as locked in as i'd like so maybe i need to have a play with the style a bit more but it's going in the right direction.

Stops still aren't "poppy" enough for my liking but i'm at 2200 head speed already which is high for my liking so not sure what else it could be as I'm 13.5 degree pitch

All in all not too much of a bad day as some improvements, i'll go back out tomorrow and try and improve it again ready for the weekend :)

Offline Scott Anderson

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Re: E7SE stops issues..
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 11:14:30 AM »
Glad to hear about the improvements. 13.5° collective isn't that much for a 700 you could be at 14° to 15° and be ok . Also I set Paddle Sim to "0"
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Offline Matt Botos

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Re: E7SE stops issues..
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 12:48:22 PM »
Tom,

Try the long ball mod on the inner swash balls (the ones that connect to the pitch links)

Guys that like faster cyclic speed generally end up using the long balls.

The modification is easy, just dremel off about 1mm of threads then loctite the long balls into the inner swash. You will need to reconfigure your Vbar numbers as this mod does increase your cyclic throw.

Thanks,

Matt

Offline Tom Owen

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Re: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 01:16:42 PM »
Okay i'll give that a go!

Thanks for the support top notch :)!

Quick question Matt, i've got a bag of 5 balls part number 107-108 which i understand is the ones you are on about using on the inner swash and taking 1mm off the thread? Do i need to change the two balls on the blade grips also to the same or just all of them on the inner swash?

Cheers!

Offline Matt Botos

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Re: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 06:39:37 PM »
Hey Tom,

Just the balls on the inner swash.

Changing blade grip arm balls will change your delta which is a big no-no with flybarless. Zero delta is key for FBL performance.

Thanks,

Matt

Offline steffgiguere

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Re: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 07:07:50 PM »
I did the mod on E6/E7 and went back to normal once I started using the E7SE head and set-up.
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Offline Matt Botos

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Re: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 07:40:20 PM »
Yep! It's all a matter of personal preferences. Good news is there are plenty of options.  8)

Offline Ben Kerr

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Re: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 07:59:39 PM »
If you're looking for a harder stop on your collective with the vbar try adding some pitch pump. Its in the swash setup expert menu. 30 would be a good starting point.
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Offline Mike Spano

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Re: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2014, 02:08:35 PM »
I also just noticed this. I had a very similar issue with my 700 gasser, AND my e7. but it wasn't with the vbar. the servos your running 9080's are not really meant for 700 blades, they were designed for 600mm blades. look at the torque ratings on them vs the 9180, or the newest 9280. they simply weren't strong enough to slam my heli to a stop. they were, as you are describing, sluggish. same with pitch pumps, and tick tocs.

I just went with the new servos by savox. 2284SG with 20kg/cm (277.74oz-in)

the 9080's have :6.0V: 88.3 oz-in (6.36 kg-cm)
                         7.4V: 112.4 oz-in (8.09 kg-cm)
                         8.4V: 132.9 oz-in (9.57 kg-cm)

the 9180's have :  6.0V: 183.2 oz-in (13.19 kg-cm)
                           7.4V: 226.3 oz-in (16.29 kg-cm)
                           8.4V: 245.7 oz-in (17.69 kg-cm)

I would be willing to bet this is contributing to your issues as well as what has been mentioned above. with stronger servos you probably wont need to change geometry, or amp up the settings in the vbar.

as a test on the bench, you can hold one of those blades with your thumb, and index and middle finger and give pitch inputs with your TX. I bet you can stall those servos with just those fingers. I could mine before I swapped them. I had the same exact servos in mine. the new savox, or even the 9180's will twist your wrist off if you try to hold on...
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 02:10:47 PM by Gasser Mike »
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Offline Tom Owen

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Re: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2014, 04:29:42 PM »
Thanks so much for the help :)

Cyclic is a bit slow for me at the moment so i'll end up doing the mod, regards servos i have another E7SE with Align HV Servos (i expect the word Align is banned ;) ) but i'll see how that setup compares to this one..

I'll try and add in some pitch pump to see if that helps on the stops, i've bumped the head speed up to 2200 so will see how it performs on that tomorrow evening after work!

I was running these servos on the goblin 700 and they were plenty fine on that so can't see that being the issue to be totally honest but i'll see how the align ones compare...

I'll try out some of the things suggested and keep you updated :)

Much Appreciated

Offline Rob Cherry

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Re: E7SE/Vbar stops issues..
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2014, 10:22:30 AM »
9080's at 6V on a 700? Holy smokes that's low on torque!   8)  I tried an old set of those in my E5 and they lacked the torque needed to center properly in loaded flight maneuvers and just left the heli feeling very sluggish. Try the Align HV's you have and don't forget to drop the gain down again.

Also note that vbar Agility isn't a fixed roll rate setting (100 on one setup will not roll the same rate as another setup or heli).  It's close, but only based on 8 degrees and assuming specific geometry. For the kind of cyclic you appear to desire, check your swash ring (setup>swash>advanced) to verify max cyclic and that you're seeing around 14 degrees aileron, at center collective. Then start at Agility of 90 and increase as needed. Each time you change the Agility you need to re-run the optimizers for a couple of max rate rolls/flips with hard stops in between. That will fine tune the start gains necessary to achieve the desired Agility off center.  (Rumor has it this will also adjust stopping behavior as well).

If you find the roll rate is great but want just a little more quickness off center, bump up the paddle sim even further (40).  Similar to pitch pump, it's a parameter that needs increments of 10 to notice the change.

I second Ben's advice on adding a little pitch pump (start with 20) to increase your collective stops in rainbows, etc. It's a dynamic reverse expo and likes quick fingers.   :o
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