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Author Topic: Chargers and power supply?  (Read 5571 times)

Offline NKY Heli Guy

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Chargers and power supply?
« on: January 20, 2013, 10:01:56 AM »
I'm looking for a charger / power supply that will charge multiple batteries at once and won't completely break the bank. Any suggestions? What are you guys using?

Also, I'm trying to determine how "normal" it is to charge in parallel. If its the norm I could purchase a high end charger and power supply and not focus on the dual chargers. Thoughts? I need help :)

Offline Brandon Bartolomucci

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Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2013, 12:33:30 PM »
I bought 4 freakin' chargers before I finally got the Hyperion 720i Super Duo. Absolutely love it. Parallel charging is most definitely the norm. I even charge my N5c receiver packs in parallel.

The Super Duo is a 1,000 watt charger total allowing 500 watts per side. You can charge the crap out of batteries with it plus hook it up to the PC to label all your packs & set all of your parameters up. With 2 sides it's like having 2 chargers in one. I know a lot of people like the PL8 chargers but I have no experience with them and cannot comment truthfully. I just know I have no issues with Hyperion.

I combined mine with a 24volt feathermerchantrc server power supply. He makes it the right way so that if the supplies touch each other they won't short out.


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Brandon Bartolomucci
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« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 12:35:34 PM by Brandon Bartolomucci »
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Brandon Bartolomucci
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Offline NKY Heli Guy

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Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2013, 12:48:14 PM »
Thanks Brandon I was looking at that one.

Seems people were having issues with the balance leads, glad to hear you have had no issues. Right now my biggest packs are only 6s and that seems to be the best option for the price.

When you parallel charge can it balance the cells through that process?


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Offline Brandon Bartolomucci

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Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2013, 01:57:18 PM »
Absolutely. I use a paraboard from EP Buddy and a PRC6 connector "squid" as they call it. I can charge and balance up to 6 6S packs at once. There are many options for a multi-balance board. Basically you plug one end into the port on the charger then all the leads from the batteries into multiple ports on the board.

I forgot to mention that the key to parallel charging if you don't already know is ALL packs must be the same cell count and near similar voltage. Now with the Hyperion for example, you could parallel charge 6S packs on one side and say 2S packs on the other side but you couldn't do 6 & 2S packs on the same side.

Regards,
Brandon Bartolomucci
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« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 02:00:59 PM by Brandon Bartolomucci »
Regards,
Brandon Bartolomucci
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Offline NKY Heli Guy

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Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2013, 04:31:27 PM »
I understand completely, I've been watching YouTube videos explaining exactly what you said :)

Glad to hear I'm going to order my duo tomorrow.


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Offline RichL

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Re: Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 05:43:17 PM »
I'm not a big fan of the use of modified server power supplies for charging station application.  There are a couple reasons for my opinion.   Most server power supplies are only designed to be used when connected to standard AC power they don't have active power correction and are generally not very efficient especially when connected to a generator.  The other problem is the DC or AC grounding issues that are a constant problem with these units when used for a purpose that they were not designed for.  Removing the AC ground from one unit in order for it to function in tandem with a second unit to produce 24 volts is dangerous. Removing the DC ground is a little safer but, in either situation there is going to be a floating ground.  In a short circuit situation current is going to be looking for a place to go.  If no ground is removed there is a good chance that there will be a difference in potential between the two units connected in series meaning that if the cases physically touch they will short or if you connect your self between them you may be shocked.  For 100 bucks more you can have a very efficient purpose built power supply with active power correction that runs cool and has a  two year warranty with none of the floating ground drama.  Just my 2 cents.


Rich
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 06:02:57 PM by RichL »
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Offline NKY Heli Guy

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Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 06:11:57 PM »
Interesting Rich thanks for your input! You are referring to just the power supply right? Not a dual charger?? Sorry for my ignorance :)


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Offline RichL

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Re: Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2013, 06:27:21 PM »
The Hyperion charger you are looking at will work just fine.  My opinion was only in reference to the power supply.


Rich
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flyalan

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Re: Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2013, 07:33:46 PM »
I use an ICharger 306B on 24V with the PRC6 octopus and a 6S parallel balance cable.  All from EPBuddy.  I can't say enough nice things about those folks.  I do also have an Icharger 206B for charging smaller packs and receiver packs.

Cheers
Alan

Offline Rodney Kirstine

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Re: Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2013, 10:27:41 PM »
I'm not a big fan of the use of modified server power supplies for charging station application.  There are a couple reasons for my opinion.   Most server power supplies are only designed to be used when connected to standard AC power they don't have active power correction and are generally not very efficient especially when connected to a generator.
Rich

Interesting.  That's exactly the opposite of what I read before I decided to build a 24V supply with HP server supplies.  I kept seeing it mentioned that they have power correction which makes them really good for use with a generator.  I've not used mine with a generator but I guess now I need to do some more research...
Rodney

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Offline Greg Jackson

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Re: Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2013, 11:36:19 PM »
Late on this thread, but I have the Hitec X4 plus.  Takes care of all of my charging needs.
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Offline BrianE

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Re: Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 06:30:59 AM »
Late on this thread, but I have the Hitec X4 plus.  Takes care of all of my charging needs.

The problem with the X4 plus and a lot of the "standard" chargers out there is it's only 50 watts per charger.  Your E5 on 6S will need around 4500-5000 mah 6S packs.  Even on the low end (4500) you'll over 110 watts to charge at 1C.  With a 50 watt charger you're taking over 2 hours to charge one battery.  I know the X4 has 4 chargers but if you had 4 batteries you could only fly once every 30 minutes as batteries cycled on the charger.  If you got the X2 and two parallel boards you could charge two batteries at a time per side and charge all 4 in a hour.  With that you could fly every 15 minutes. 
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Offline NKY Heli Guy

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Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 08:02:35 PM »
Ok PL6 and parallel charge at 40amps or Hyperion duo at 20amps per side? I don't plan on charging different battery types and I'm still in the fence about parallel charging. Some say parallel charging does not balance properly and some swear that it does (progressiveRC). Thoughts, suggestions, experiences with parallel charging?


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Offline RichL

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Re: Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 09:55:07 PM »
This what you need to know about parallel charging.  When you parallel charge a batteries your are working with averages not absolutes.  Here is an example, you have two 4 cell lipo batteries and have not yet connected them in parallel (battery column 1 & 2) .  Once connected in parallel to the main charging charging leads only  (average voltage column) . Main and balance lead connected and assuming all cells are able to equalize perfectly (Bal lead connected).

                             
             Battery 1     Battery2       Average voltage     Bal lead connected
Cell1      3.70v            3.68v               3.69v                          3.67v
Cell2      3.78v            3.59v               3.69v                          3.67v
Cell3      3.69v            3.62v               3.65v                          3.67v
Cell4      3.72v            3.60v               3.66v                          3.67v
Total      14.89v          14.49v             14.69V                      14.69v

The table above demonstrates actual voltage vs average voltages.  The further you carry the table out (say four 6S battery packs) the larger the difference between the average voltage and actual voltage can become. When your parallel charge ends you are most likely not going to see perfectly balanced cells in each battery pack because, individual cells often have slightly different charge rates.  When a individual cell charges more slowly than than another cell connected in parallel the faster charging cell will have a higher voltage and because the charger can only see the average voltage of a group of cells it cannot correct the voltage of a individual cell.
 
What happens when you connect to batteries together in parallel?  The first thing that happens is that the batteries attempt to equalize their voltages.  The battery with the higher voltage will charge the battery with the lower voltage until their voltages are equal.  What is the problem with this?  The real problem occurs when there is a large difference in voltage between two or more battery packs.  Because there is no resistance or load between the battery packs the higher voltage pack will discharge at it's maximum capability in order to equalize the voltage difference between the batteries.  As an example lets say you have two 60c battery packs, one of the packs has a 20% charge and the other has a 80% charge.  When these two cells are connected in parallel, the cell with the 80% charge is going to discharge at 60c to charge the 20% pack.  The problem that exists with this example is that most Lipo battery packs are not designed to be charged above 1C to 6C depending on the battery.

If careful you may charge Lipo battery packs in parallel but there are things that have to be taken into consideration. Avoid connecting batteries in parallel that have large differences in voltage (you should verify the voltages every time before before connecting them in a parallel circuit).  Never connect the balancing leads to the parallel balancing board before connecting all of the main leads to the parallel charging pigtail, doing so will cause the the batteries to try to equalize their voltages through the very small gauge balancing wires (which usually pop like a fuse).  Remember, no matter how small the voltage difference, equalization will occur at the maximum C that can be reached prior to the cells or battery packs reaching equal voltage.  Only like battery packs should be charged together in parallel, IE. same voltage capacity / number of cells, same C rating and close in the number of cycles used or life span remaining (don't use new and old packs together in parallel when charging or flying).

I personally do not charge batteries in parallel because when batteries equalize their voltages they do so well above the recommended charging rates which shortens battery life.  With a large enough difference in battery pack voltages the possibility exists for explosion or fire.  When charging batteries in parallel you are balancing to the average cell voltage instead of the actual individual cell voltage. We have all experienced that in some Lipo packs batteries some individual cells charge more quickly than others when this happens in a parallel circuit, the charger is not going to see that one cell in a battery is low because the charger only sees the average of the cells connected in parallel.  Remember the more cells you have in parallel the larger the average "error" will become.   If you decide to charge in parallel please check closely your parallel charging pigtails, I recently saw one from a very reputable distributor / manufacture that had a battery connector installed with the polarity reversed.  Had two batteries been connected to this charging lead a fire or possible explosion would have occurred.

If you choose to parallel charge your battery packs, you should preform regular battery maintenance (normal balancing charge) on a regular basis in order to truly balance the individual cells.

Of the choices you mentioned I would go with the Hyperion duo at 20amps per side or two of the PL6 and avoid parallel charging.  With three battery packs you will be able to fly all day without pause for recharging.  Just get a good power supply no matter which charger you decide to go with.  Plenty of pilots are parallel charging their batteries, it just seems like a lot of extra work and higher associated risk to accomplish a simple task IMHO.  I use two I Charger 3010Bs and a Meanwell SE 1000-24 powersupply.  I can keep batteries charged and two helicopters flying all day without pause if I desire.    I hope you find this information helpful.  Here is a link to with photos and details to my charging station: http://synergyrchelicopters.com/forum/index.php?topic=1252.0


Rich                         
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 12:45:13 AM by RichL »
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Offline Lojik

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Re: Chargers and power supply?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 12:02:01 AM »
My current setup is the below:

Two 12v 100Ah 780CCA Sealed Deep Cycle Batteries, hooked up together in series to create a 24volt system, these are both bolted in the rear of my car and linked via a large gauge dual battery system to my starting battery up front with a switching isolator in the middle to stop flow back to the front unless I need it to crank over the engine, this means when ever I drive they are constantly topped up :)

At the field these hook up to my trusty (4 year old) Hyperion 1410i, this charger has served me well and is still going strong as, 550w single side, capable of balance charging 14cells, might grab another or get a duo but undecided yet.

I do not and will not parallel charge, this is just my personal preference.

with this setup it only takes 14min to charge my 4500 12cell 60c stick packs and with 3 packs on hand they will charge faster than I fly.

works for me  ;)
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