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Author Topic: Engine question  (Read 8149 times)

Offline Pie

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Engine question
« on: October 16, 2013, 10:57:59 PM »
I recently acquired an n5c and I'm in the process of buying everything I need. The first thing I want to get is the engine. I know I want an os. I have plenty of experience running and tuning nitro engines with my planes but this will be my first heli engine. I have done enough research to know that the 50 hyper will have enough power to do what I want with the heli but, Is there a difference in "tune ability" between the 55hzr and the 50 hyper. I noticed the 3 needle setup on the hrz. Can someone break it down for me what the difference between a 2 needle and a 3 needle setup and what and if there are any advantages to a 3 needle carb?

Offline Tommy Wagner

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 11:57:23 PM »
The is 55 HZR is a very nice motor being pumped it makes fuel flow very consistent to the carb.   This in turn makes it easer to tune. Get a good pipe hatori or a power boost and your ready to rock n roll


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flyalan

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2013, 01:40:02 AM »
The HZ and HZR needles are idle, mid Range and high speed. That third needle is the mid range. Just allows for more tuneability. I use the 55HZ on my N5c and it works great.

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Alan


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Offline KevinM

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2013, 09:45:51 AM »
little more detail...

The 55HZ or 55HZR are fantastic engines! One thing to be noted the non regulated 55hz (muffler pressure) is much more forgiving with tuning.  Regulated enignes seem to narrow that band of forgivingness meaning instead of 5 clicks on the muffler pressure you may hit lean within 1-3 clicks.  i would drfinintely say that the OS 55hzr is not nearly as finicky as the YS56-60sr... so still room to play. 

Low needle---alot of folks think you need to monkey with this to get that transistion or cough from idle to mid range (hover) and lean the low needle...this is just not true..OS does a pretty darn good job of setting that needle (or design) that once you get the high and mid needles tuned or sync'd the low needle almost never needs tuning.

High needle---start here...first needle to mess with...after break in, big punch outs heavy collective loops...no one can teach you how to tune. some say look at smoke..but truth your ear is the only way your going to get it right.  when it stops sounding rich.......*****let me stop and explain something here******....i really hate when ppl say raspy is lean..this to me is a HUGE misconception in my opinion.. raspy to me is a brandnew motor out the box thats just sloppy ass rich.  I hate to say this because again it takes practice and listening to the engine. I burnt up 3 OS50 hypers and 4+ years in the hobby before I finally caught on and I'm still learning.  But Lean sounds kinda like chewbacca's growl with a OS engine...YS is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!  But as funny as that sounds when your doing big hurricanes and tight tictocs i hear Chewbacca if it runs lean but theres one note of frequency in the tone of the engine. Raspy is a huge frequency wave with tall peaks and low vallies if viewed digitally and sounds messy..or an untuned musically instrument...it should sound like one solid note under load.  Look and listen to Matt's videos on you tube..you'll hear what your trying to achieve.  SO, big manuevers and get the high almost tuned and your reducing that raspy rich sound and bog but dont go to far......**I'll explain in a minute... ---i think when folks say raspy for lean theyre meaning that the engine is quite possibly pre-detonating..and making a tinging tinny sound...im still working on this part my self with a YS im running.

Mid---tune this second...tight tictocs are a great way to tune this..if it has the one note previously mentioned and doesnt sound like its getting lazy or loosing power (provided your using collective mgmt and doing it right) then your good. if its raspy rich, lean it up a click at a time.  I've seen alot where guys new to tuning will get the mid to lean and sport fly and it comes down cooking hot!  If you sport fly then leave it rich, but where your getting decent flight times. If you sport fly do big heavy collective loops and at the top go back to center stick and listen for the transition back to the mid needle...it should be clean and quick!

The key is never go lean...if you do you just shortened the life span of the engine...FURTHER more remember whatever adjustments you make on one of the 3 needles its going to affect and bleed over into the other needles...example if you tune the high  (**) where its boarderline lean and lean out the mid now the high needle will be lean...so just be mindful of that! 

this was long and i was bored at work so hope it helps!! The rest of you guys add freely or argue..maybe what you'll have to say will help me too!! :)

KevinM
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 10:58:12 AM by KevinM »

Offline Jon Mills

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2013, 11:14:09 PM »
Nice post KevinM! 

If I could put my two cents in here on a previous heli I actually decided to try the OL60 carb from the OS 50 on my 55 and it seemed to run great!  I noticed a bit more power and very easy to tune, more of a set and forget.  Especially if your not too keen on tuning.  I think most people started flying a OS50 and they are great!  Try to get one of those ceramic ball bearing setups in it from the get because both stock bearings have a notoriously short lifespan. I'm talking about both the 50 and 55.

Offline Jon Mills

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2013, 03:56:41 AM »
+1 on the Hatori Sab55, and I have owned the both the powerboost 2 and the Hatori.  The hatori really is second to none IMHO.

Offline Kevin Feil

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 09:11:13 PM »
Great Post Kevin M !

Kevin
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flyalan

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 09:25:17 PM »
Nice post and helpful KevinM.
Hummm. My OS55HZ is over a year old and has the original bearings. Like Kevin said. Don't run me lean....

Cheers
Alan


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Offline KevinM

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2013, 09:07:46 AM »
I'm glad this was well received.  I feel that tuning talk isnt discussed enough! Especially when I was burning up engines left and right! lol! On the other hand, burning a few up is a great way to learn what NOT to do! Expensive, but great for learning the threshhold of engines within your own flying stlye. I know what I'm about to discuss is way off from the orginal question..but I thought it may open up questions that ppl maybe havent thought of or the veteran synergy team members can chime in on! :)

**I'd like to add something here that I can honestly say I've never seen in print.  So I might get long winded again..sorry.  With power systems getting so powerful these days some have begun to call it 'power mgmt' instead of the standard 'collective mgmt'.  This (IMO) is a noobs way of looking to excuse their poor collective mgmt...and it was a noob who I first heard this phrase.  You dont hear veterans calling it "power mgmt"...so where am I going with this..

I wanted to take a minute to explain something that I didnt learn about until I got a OS105.  I had all kinds of trouble with that engine...however, after having a discussion with a friend at Amainhobbies, I realize, that the majority of my troubles were my own, not the engine.  When you have an engine like the 105 that's virtually unboggable, what happens? Everyone is guilty...you get greedy with that collective stick. We think it can handle it and it seems to want more...well..not entirely true.  I was running mine in a T700n at the time, and I gotta say Im a big fan of Tim Jones monsterous inverted backward loops and fast heavy collective hurricanes...well my 105 was getting hot. Every Flight the engine would come down hotter than the last.  Every flight I would richen the needles thinkin its going lean. So out of fear, I richened it up! Next flight, hotter than the last to the point by the 3rd or 4th flight it came down so hot that I could smell it and there was gray oil in the pressure valve fuel line.  This stumped me for a while!  Then I talked to a guy after selling it all,  that he had that issue with his YS120...BUT here was why.  He called it "Heat Soaking" the engine. OR meaning he never gave the engine time to breathe or take a break to cool off.  He also, stayed in the collective for way to long, or the majority of the 7min.  Ppl like Tim, Matt and the other Pro's know the difference and know when to let go and get out of the collective, guys that are normal jo's like myself get caught up having too much fun and forget that we may be doing damage... I would assume this is true with all combustion engines.  HOWEVER, I'd like to take a second to compare to electrics...

I can also generate ALOT of heat in an electric motor, from the same flight style previously mentioned. Didnt matter that I was using quality electronics...but had everything to do with how I was treating it.  My 700 and 600 motors would come down over 220 degrees...scary!  45c packs just couldnt hang...so I went to Thunder Power 65c packs thinkin this would fix the prob...wrong...the packs came down cool (thunder power--awesome packs btw) but the motor.. HOT!  The milder the flight the cooler things came down..the more angry I flew and stayed in the collective...boiling hot.  This sounds like common sense, I know.  But I wanted to take a few minutes to explain that tuning can be a hassle if your collective AND cyclic mgmt isnt in check! ...and not to mention I never knew Heat Soaking was possible until I got just good enough to be dangerous! LOL.  So it comes full circle, in my opinion its not power mgmt its collective mgmt...power mgmt is trying to control a power system that exceeds your abilities, collective mgmt is staying in control of the machine and telling it to do what you command it to do not letting it fly you..

50 size nitros...best learning tool on the market! Separate's the men from the boys!  I've seen newer folks sell 50 nitros due to "lack of power" and go back to electrics...I'll let you read between the lines on that one! ;)

I hope this helped. ..and as always please comment what you dont agree with as well as what you do and your experiences!! :)

« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 09:19:38 AM by KevinM »

Offline Rodney Kirstine

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 09:56:08 AM »
Quote
50 size nitros...best learning tool on the market! Separate's the men from the boys!  I've seen newer folks sell 50 nitros due to "lack of power" and go back to electrics...I'll let you read between the lines on that one!

Buying the N5C is one of the best decisions I've made due to exactly this reason.  I had no idea what a complete hack I was at collective management until I got the N5C.  I thought something was wrong with the motor, at first, and then finally realized that I was just way overdoing it with collective almost all of the time.  I wholeheartedly agree with you that 50 size nitros are an excellent learning tool!
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Offline Pie

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2013, 08:01:09 PM »
Thank you very much for the help, I just ordered the 55hz. So much stuff to do with this new heli, I'm sure I will have plenty more questions for you guys, thanks

Offline BeefSupreme

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2013, 06:02:10 PM »
Quote
50 size nitros...best learning tool on the market! Separate's the men from the boys!  I've seen newer folks sell 50 nitros due to "lack of power" and go back to electrics...I'll let you read between the lines on that one!

Buying the N5C is one of the best decisions I've made due to exactly this reason.  I had no idea what a complete hack I was at collective management until I got the N5C.  I thought something was wrong with the motor, at first, and then finally realized that I was just way overdoing it with collective almost all of the time.  I wholeheartedly agree with you that 50 size nitros are an excellent learning tool!

This  is exactly  the reason that I bought an  N5C,  to   help me learn better collective management.

Offline Kevin Feil

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2013, 10:57:19 PM »
Enjoyed the Read Kevin M, makes perfect sense..... Thanks for posting that!

K
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Offline KevinM

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Re: Engine question
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 08:55:38 AM »
Thanks KevinF!!