E5 Motor,pinion,battery and head speed

[Wolf51]

Hi guys,

my E5 build is progressing nicely.
The frame has been stripped and re-assembled, main and tail rotors still to be done.
Meanwhile I've been researching and buying parts for the electronics system.
Servos, Align 615 cyclic/655 tail to run @ 6v. Castle Phoenix Edge 120HV ESC and Castle Pro BEC 20A.
Flybarless system will be IKON.

Now its time to sort the motor, pinion and battery combo that will come together at a decent head speed range on the heli. I will be using Rail 556/96 blades.

At this stage I plan to use a Scorpion HKIII 4025-1100, but may substitute something else. Depending on answers here.

I've browsed a couple of other topics on this forum discussing the same questions and a number of senior members are running the same Scorpion motor, using 13T pinion and head speed range 2200-2300. Running either 4400 or 5000mah batterys.

My flying style at present is light sport, but with the intention to get into 3D as quickly as I can develop my skills.

My questions are:
- Would the 4025-1100 using the 13T pinion still be the recommended option?
- I have been told that the 4025-1100 is prone to running quite hot. Is this the case and are there ways to set up the motor, head speed, ESC and/or governor to avoid it?
- Would it be better to use the IKON governor or the governor in the ESC?
- What performance and flight time differences would you expect to get between a 4400 and 5000mah battery.
- Accepting that its wise to buy the best we can afford, what would be the minimum and optimum C rating batterys you would recommend for sports flight and 3D.

A bit to go through there, but I thank you in advance for your thoughts and advice.

cheers

Wolf

[fran11784]

Was just about to ask about battery's for my E5 build. I'm going to run a 12s system and was wondering if 3300's would be ok? I have a set of 5200's but their kind of big packs

[Chris Sexton]

My questions are:
- Would the 4025-1100 using the 13T pinion still be the recommended option?
- I have been told that the 4025-1100 is prone to running quite hot. Is this the case and are there ways to set up the motor, head speed, ESC and/or governor to avoid it?
- Would it be better to use the IKON governor or the governor in the ESC?
- What performance and flight time differences would you expect to get between a 4400 and 5000mah battery.
- Accepting that its wise to buy the best we can afford, what would be the minimum and optimum C rating batterys you would recommend for sports flight and 3D.

Hello!

1100kv and 13t pinion would be a good combo for 2200-2300 rpm.

I prefer the iKON gov over the Castle GOV just because the iKON gov is predictive, meaning it knows when you are requesting a move that will load the head and can feed in power as you perform the move. The Castle ESC gov has to wait unit it sees the head load and play catch up.  Both are good solutions though.

I have never had any heat issues with any of my 4025-1100kv motors. The trick is proper gearing and ESC setup.  Any motor will run hot when you fly hard or push the limits of gearing and timing in the ESC.

I have tried a variety of batteries, I have found that for my flight style, the extra weight the 5000mAh packs adds eats up any extra flight time provided over the 4400mAh packs.  Of course this is subjective to battery brands and flight times. But I have settled on 4400mAh packs with 4.30 flight times.

Battery C ratings. This one is probably the most subjective of all.  Stick with a name brand battery, 35-70C and you will be good. All manufacturers have their issues from time to time. That being said, I fly Thunder Power, Glacier and Pulse Ultra. Having great luck with all of them. The TP and Pulse pull harder than the Glacier but the Glaciers are holding up in the long run just as well.

[Wolf51]

Chris thanks for the very helpful feedback. 

I hope it doesn't get tiresome when so many ask similar questions.
Then again, we're building the knowledge base for others as we go.

I had MrMel do some calcs for me as well and I'm starting to see theres
a happy medium in combinations of motor KV, gearing and head speed.
Then you adjust your settings to suit your objectives and flying style.

I've read similar opinions regarding the choice of governor and will be going with the IKON gov as well.

Chris, you mention flight time of 4:30 using 4400 packs.
I know you're well past the beginner stage  , so is that flight time on hard 3D, cruising or a mix of both?

thanks again.


@fran11784, you're looking at a whole different set of requirements running 12S, so answers to my questions here won't really help you.
You may do better to start a new topic so folks can concentrate on answering questions specific to your setup.
Good luck

[Chris Sexton]

well I am far from a hard 3d Pilot. My style is sport and flying big. 4.30 is a combination of fast and hard collective loops and plenty of bad collective management lol.

sent from my Verizon Samsung Galaxy Note 2

[Wolf51]

Thanks Chris, you're well ahead of me in skills then.

I'm getting good results with bad collective management, but just starting to work on loops. 
Sounds like I can hope for similar flight times.

cheers

[Airbass]

Hi
I run the scorpion 4025 1100 with 12 T pinion. Packs are 4400 35C.
After 5 min of 2200 rpm sport flying, motor and esc are absolutely  cool.
Trying now flips and rainbows at 2350. Flight time has been reduced to 4.30. The other point is that the motor can't hold the hs till the end. Thus I feel I need to go 13 T pinion.
Do you think 35C is enough?
Should I expect even less flight time?

Inviato dal mio GT-I9195 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Barry Tilson]

Just have 24 flights on my new E5 with the 1100kv and the 14T pinion. 2300ish on the 4400's @ 4min and 2500ish on the 5000's @ 5min. Using almost 80% of the packs. The packs are warmer than the E7 on 12s. Kinda wish I could get it up to 6 min with down shift to 13T but think the lower head speeds would take away from the feel. May try it anyways just to see the difference.
Love this heli it's going to be a great time builder, I'm not as worried about he cost of the crashes compared to the 2 E7's.

[Wolf51]

PerspectiveVisuals,
what C rating are the 4400 and 5000 batteries you mention in your post?
And why the different head speed for the different pack capacities?

[Barry Tilson]

Like the others have spoken about the E5 is a bit more sensitive to the differences in the weights of the pacs. The 5000 seem to need a bit more HS to handle the additional weight. You can feel that the 5000's sink a bit more in the midrange collective at 2300. Just when you loose transitional lift. It's not bad just a matter of taste and flying style. Not to say that you can't fly them at lower head speeds. The disc loading at those two head speeds with those different batteries feels pretty good. The 2500 HS has a cool mean sound and the 2300 HS is quieter.

The 4400's are 65c thunder power and 5000
are the Optipower ultras 50c.

Ultimately I would like the E5 to have similar flight characteristics to my E7s.


Barry

[Airbass]

The 4400's are 65c thunder power and 5000
are the Optipower ultras 50c.


Barry

That's the point. Mine are Gens Ace 4400 35C. Will they be able to hold 2400 rpm for 4 min of something more than sport flying? Anybody guess?

[Wolf51]

Like the others have spoken about the E5 is a bit more sensitive to the differences in the weights of the pacs. The 5000 seem to need a bit more HS to handle the additional weight. You can feel that the 5000's sink a bit more in the midrange collective at 2300. Just when you loose transitional lift. It's not bad just a matter of taste and flying style. Not to say that you can't fly them at lower head speeds. The disc loading at those two head speeds with those different batteries feels pretty good. The 2500 HS has a cool mean sound and the 2300 HS is quieter.

The 4400's are 65c thunder power and 5000
are the Optipower ultras 50c.

Ultimately I would like the E5 to have similar flight characteristics to my E7s.


Barry

Thanks Barry,

obviously the E5 is ok with the bigger packs, I've seen a clip of Tareq Alsaadi beating up hard on an E5 carrying a 5000. That was a high C rating pack, but I wonder how many cycles you'd get working it that hard.

Obviously a lot of people are running high C rating packs for the extra punch and performance they want for hard use.

That said, Chris Sexton posted earlier in this thread that 35-70c packs should be fine. I'm intending to try 4400-4500 35-70c packs as I'll initially be concentrating on sport flying.

Airbass since posted his concern above about whether his 35C packs up to more advanced flight manoeuvres. I suspect he'll benefit from going up to a 13T pinion too. That might make it easier on the packs.

So some more feedback on how lower C rating packs perform may be useful.

Thanks guys.

[Rodney Kirstine]

That's the point. Mine are Gens Ace 4400 35C. Will they be able to hold 2400 rpm for 4 min of something more than sport flying? Anybody guess?

4 minutes might be doable with those.  I run some Sky Lipo 4400 30C and I get 4:15 at 2250 rpm.

[Wolf51]

Thanks for the info and the video Joe, nice flying. 
So you're running a 121T main (rather than the std 119) with a 14T pinion and running a 1200KV motor.
Overall that's increasing your potential head speed a bit.
So running 2200-2390 head speed range you're reducing motor rpm and current?
Though maybe current spikes would be higher under heavy load due to the higher gearing?
Someone please tell me if I have that wrong.

Either way, if you're getting 5min+ flights like your clip, that's quite good.
What is the C rating of your Zippy 4500mah packs?

cheers

PS. Apologies guys if I seem to be locked in on the C rating question. I don't want to buy underspec packs, but would rather not spend big bucks on top spec packs until my flying is advanced enough to warrant them.

[Barry Tilson]

PS. Apologies guys if I seem to be locked in on the C rating question. I don't want to buy underspec packs, but would rather not spend big bucks on top spec packs until my flying is advanced enough to warrant them.

Agreed it dose seem like the E5 takes up more current to get around. It's easy to get concerned with the cost of packs. I think the main difference is that it's a lower volt setup on 6s and draws more current in this configuration.

30c is still very respectable for most all of us at 132 amps on the 4400s. Some nerd must be logging amp draw?
The 1100kv motor from scorpion runs maxed out at 78 amps and peeks at 90 amps. The specs and math say no big deal.

I think being concerned with the correct gearing to match your head speed so you don't over draw on the system.
Most of us gage it by how hot things are after a flight and how much we put back in after a certain flight time.